Soil ph and Pasture Weeds

[JWBrahman]

My pasture is on the right. I put down 40 pounds per acre of pelletized dolomitic limestone during the late winter rains. The pasture on the left was also sprayed with Grazon every year for the past five years. I use plain old 2-4,D and dishwashing soap as a surfactant at about one pint per acre.

 

[skyhightree1]

My pasture is on the right. I put down 40 pounds per acre of pelletized dolomitic limestone during the late winter rains. The pasture on the left was also sprayed with Grazon every year for the past five years. I use plain old 2-4,D and dishwashing soap as a surfactant at about one pint per acre.

JW thats the same prescription of 2-4D i use twice a year I use regular pulverized lime though

 

[JWBrahman]

How well does the pulverized spread? The pelletized spreads easily and you can get it at the big box stores like Lowe's and Home Depot. I use hydrated lime in the barn for flies and odors.

 

[skyhightree1]

How well does the pulverized spread? The pelletized spreads easily and you can get it at the big box stores like Lowe's and Home Depot. I use hydrated lime in the barn for flies and odors.

it isn't bad at all and if you dont have your own spreader atleast here its not too expensive to have lime spread. I decided this year to mix pelletized lime and grass seed when I do my fall overseeding to try it and see how that works. I do not drill when overseeding so figured if I did seed and lime I could kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

 

[M.Magis]

Interesting picture. Is the 40 lbs of lime the only treatment you've given? Lime applications are typically measured in tons/acre and take months to make any measurable change to the pH, so there must be something else you're doing right that your neighbor isn't. Your green pasture looks nice, we're just starting to see a hint of green around here.

 

[shaz]

I've had pretty good results at about 200lbs/acre pelletized.
Do you mind telling us how much the lime costs?

 

[JWBrahman]

That is a 20 acre pasture so I just grabbed 20 of the 40 lb bags that cost $3.97. Used a regular lawn spreader. Counted fence posts until I went about 200 feet then made a box shaped pattern.

Not really sure why I look so much better than my Aunt's place. We both had similar stocking rates last spring. Her place was open from November until March without any cattle. One thing I did that was different was burn the old stands of Bermuda in late October. I also clipped the seed heads on the rye grass to prolong the growing season, which can over seed for the next year. That little bit of lime really works well when you get a lot of rain, too. The soil test showed there was a lot of nitrogen locked up in the heavy clay just waiting to get out with lime and rain.

 

[brandonm_13]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but your pasture success isn't due to the lime. If your pasture needs lime (you really don't know if you don't take a soil test), its going to be recommended at one to three TONS per acre. Generally, lime isn't recommended unless your soil pH is below 6.0.

I've heard people say that you don't need as much lime when you use the pelleted form but that's really not true. Yes sometimes the pelletized lime may be a more potent source, but we're only looking at a 5-10% reduction. Pelletized lime, however can work faster than regular at lime because it is fine particles, but it doesn't mean you can use less. Hydrated lime is very fine and I think you can use a little less, but its caustic.

Regular ag lime (either the standard calcitic lime or the dolomitic lime which also adds magnesium) lime runs $25-30 a ton versus $200 a ton for pelletized ($4 per forty pounds x 50 bags = $200). And you can have it spread for a minimal fee.

First do a simple soil test to see if you even need lime.

 

[skyhightree1]

completely agree ag lime is way cheaper than pelletized atleast here its true

 

[JWBrahman]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but your pasture success isn't due to the lime. If your pasture needs lime (you really don't know if you don't take a soil test), its going to be recommended at one to three TONS per acre. Generally, lime isn't recommended unless your soil pH is below 6.0.

I've heard people say that you don't need as much lime when you use the pelleted form but that's really not true. Yes sometimes the pelletized lime may be a more potent source, but we're only looking at a 5-10% reduction. Pelletized lime, however can work faster than regular at lime because it is fine particles, but it doesn't mean you can use less. Hydrated lime is very fine and I think you can use a little less, but its caustic.

Regular ag lime (either the standard calcitic lime or the dolomitic lime which also adds magnesium) lime runs $25-30 a ton versus $200 a ton for pelletized ($4 per forty pounds x 50 bags = $200). And you can have it spread for a minimal fee.

First do a simple soil test to see if you even need lime.

Thanks for the advice Brandon. Not sure how you think you are a bearer of bad or good news, this is just a coffee shop type discussion. If you wish to get technical I can bore the pants off of you with plant and soil system jargon. Heck, I even have a certificate/license from the state of Louisiana to do a soil test, diagnose plant pathogens, and all that stuffed in a drawer somewhere. Dang test cost a fortune and took three hours with a calculator, but that is another story. Haven't done a soil test in about 14 years, the first one concluded what I pretty much had figured out with a visual inspection. That is when I put down 250 pounds of agricultural lime per acre and let the place go fallow. Then I planted deep rooted sunflowers, bushhogged, burned, sprayed, ran hair sheep for a year, and got the ph squared away.

Even with over a decade of renovation we still have drainage and ph problems in the low spots with the clay you can use for ceramics. I am still in the process of getting my drainage squared away, that is why I do have small stands of buttercups. Running a small tractor with a lawn spreader and pelletized lime in that kind of geography is the best way to avoid to soil compaction and even more weeds. It takes a lot less lime than you think to unlock nitrogen if you are doing it in combination with good grazing practices (take half leave half), periodic burnings, multi-species grazing, and a host of other things that the good people at UK and KSU have already done and made VHS documentaries of their research.

Thanks for adding to the discussion.

 

[brandonm_13]

Well I don't know that I used any technical jargon, but anyway I'll go ahead and try to state why I think it's best to go with ag lime.

First if you think your are compacting the soil more with larger amounts, unless your soil is wet in summer or fall (usually not a problem), you aren't going to be getting much compaction, and you're only going to be running a spreader truck over the pasture once every five years or so instead of the tractor each year.

What about releasing nitrogen? Most nutrients (at least the nutrients the plants want) is most available when the soil pH is between 6.0-7.0. I'm not worried as much about releasing nitrogen. Besides keeping a neutral pH, I'm more concerned about increasing my organic matter, which as you probably know releases nitrogen (and a bunch of other nutrients) decreases soil compaction, and increases water holding capacity.

A lot of universities have research on things like this and I think they're all in accordance oN using rotational grazing, multi-species grazing, avoiding overgrazing/overstocking etc. To reduce weeds, but those practices are effective in reducing weeds regardless of liming practices.

 

[brandonm_13]

And if something looks weird I'm using a Kindle with auto correct.

If you've got compaction spots, lime can help with that, especially when worked into the soil. Once the calcium dissolves, it more or separates the clay it's worked into and after it dissolves, it leaves little holes that can be filled with air or water. Of course you can also use a core-type aerator as well.

 

[Lucky_P]

Differences in grazing management between the two properties may have as much - or more - to do with the differing appearance as fertilization or herbicide treatments.
If the neighbor's pasture is constantly overgrazed, and all you're doing is lightly grazing or cutting hay off your field, I would expect the very different appearances.

 

[greybeard]

Well I don't know that I used any technical jargon, but anyway I'll go ahead and try to state why I think it's best to go with ag lime.

First if you think your are compacting the soil more with larger amounts, unless your soil is wet in summer or fall (usually not a problem), you aren't going to be getting much compaction, and you're only going to be running a spreader truck over the pasture once every five years or so instead of the tractor each year.

What about releasing nitrogen? Most nutrients (at least the nutrients the plants want) is most available when the soil pH is between 6.0-7.0. I'm not worried as much about releasing nitrogen. Besides keeping a neutral pH, I'm more concerned about increasing my organic matter, which as you probably know releases nitrogen (and a bunch of other nutrients) decreases soil compaction, and increases water holding capacity.

A lot of universities have research on things like this and I think they're all in accordance oN using rotational grazing, multi-species grazing, avoiding overgrazing/overstocking etc. To reduce weeds, but those practices are effective in reducing weeds regardless of liming practices.

"For each mineral, the width of the band represents the availability of that mineral at the pH indicated at the bottom of the diagram.
As can be seen, the nutrients normally suppllied as fertiliser - N,P,K, become much less available in acidic conditions.
Also important is the fact that some minerals, particularly aluminium (Al) become more available to the plants and will be taken up in such quantities that they become toxic, reducing the plants ability to grow."

 

[Richardin52]

Differences in grazing management between the two properties may have as much - or more - to do with the differing appearance as fertilization or herbicide treatments.
If the neighbor's pasture is constantly overgrazed, and all you're doing is lightly grazing or cutting hay off your field, I would expect the very different appearances.

I would agree with the first part of your statement. It would be interesting to compare the way the two pastures are grazed. My bet is one is, take half leave half, and cattle are moved quickly across the area.

This would make for a large root system which will help give the soil structure thereby making it more arobic. It would be interesting to know what types of plants that have come up without being planted.

 

[Bez__]

Well, I know hardly nothing about soils as I am just an uneducated farmer.

However - the business I deal with does know - so this is our annual program - with pricing we paid last year as a total - I have not talked to them this year.

Each spring after "dry up" - GPS coordinated soil samples - taken for free - sent to lab - 50 dollars gets the results sent to us through the seed and fertiler outfit we deal with.

They send their rep to our door to talk about what the soil needs.

Their applicator actually adjusts the application rate to the gps coordinated soil tests - last year they spread on average - 100 pounds to the acre of balanced ration as per the initial soil test results - essentially a boost to start the hay on its way.

After the first cut the soil was tested again - and the test costs were the same. We spread 150 pounds to the acre as per the test results.

After that hay cut we did the same thing only this time we put down 100 pounds per acre.

Unfortunately winter came early and we were unable to utilize it so we put it down as a tax loss.

Total hay on first cut was 152 8 foot long 3x3 bales and 63 5 foot round bales

Second cut was 203 5 foot wrapped 3x3 bales.

Usually we get another cut and take around 120 bales in whatever we need be it - round, short wrapped or dry big squares.

This all comes off 20 acres of hay

Total hay last year was 418 bales and the total cost was just under $4,000 so we have about $9.50 into each bale for soil testing, fertilizer spreading and fertilizer costs.

It usually runs a bunch less but we were shorted one cut of hay due to weather.

My estimation if we had done total hay cut puts the costs of soil tests, fertilizer costs and custom spreading at around $7.50 per bale.

What this provides us is hay that is dairy quality and allows us to completely remove grain from the feed costs. It is usually in the 14 plus percent range with a high total digestable intake. The wrapped bales are usually much higher and can reach the low 20's.

It is expensive to do this when you just look at the money - but we have adjusted our feed program to the point we simply feed hay and corn fines - which we get for free. Other than free range mineral and salt they get nothing much in addition.

We buy one load of grain per year at around $450 - $500 to feed to sheep when we are about 5 weeks out from lambing.

We have the dark loam soil that many would kill to have - we get a tremendous amount of hay per acre as a return - but only if managed - and we still buy hay - this year we will probably buy in about 300 - 350 bales as winter is far longer than expected. Because we are in a very tight part of the world for hay (we complete with the grain growers for land) we have to push the land hard and if it falls behind at all we are in danger of not being able to catch up.

If you go back over my posts on this topic of soils and fertilizers and ph balances I am always telling people that they might be wasting their money if they do not get on a true land management system that includes soil testing and custom fertilizer management program. And if they do go that route they will see incredible increases in their production - which over the long termn does several good things.

It improves the land / animal carying base.

It keeps the weeds down as grass growth chokes them out over time - reducing chemical and application costs.

It allows you to have an increase in your hay and in my opinion improves the quality of your hay.

Reduces your grain and "feed" purchases.

And finally it makes the neighbours offers to buy increase dramatically!! LOL

We are 150 acres in size with a few rented acres here and there. We actually rent out 50 acres of this farm to the neighbour - that rental income actually buys a lot of our incoming hay for us.

In fact we discussed taking back another 18 - 20 acres in two years with him this weekend, as our hay production needs to go up again - hay some of it and pasture the remainder. As we grow we will likely take back more of the rented land - but I suspect all the cows will go in a year or two and we will be strictly sheep as the returns are good and they are easier to handle as we get older.

An actual program to manage the grass is the important thing that many do not get into. Instead they simply throw fertilizer and other items on the land and hope. Unless you actually KNOW what the soil needs to grow your crop - you are simply throwing darts at a board that has been covered in paper - you will not know the true total score - ever.

A feed program does not consist of "should I buy this 22% whatever" to feed to lactating cows, should I buy this fancy lick crap because it has extra protein, and the beat goes on - all of that is money spent that once again is nothing more than throwing darts at a blanked off dart board - a feed management plan is everything literally from "the ground up".

So - give your local guy a call - despite the usual comments seen here about "my local guys are crap and I would not trust them farther than I could throw my tractor" - there are good people out there and you need to put that effort into finding them rather than beaching about the guy you do not like - remember, those guys are looking for YOU too! So you need to do the same thing they do - advertise to everyone what you are looking for - it is the only way you will find them.

Go find them and build that business relationship that allows both of you to win.

Anyway - it works for us and I suppose that is all that matters - just figured some would find it interesting.

Best to all

Bez__

 

[Stocker Steve]

My estimation if we had done total hay cut puts the costs of soil tests, fertilizer costs and custom spreading at around $7.50 per bale.
What this provides us is hay that is dairy quality and allows us to completely remove grain from the feed costs. It is usually in the 14 plus percent range with a high total digestible intake. The wrapped bales are usually much higher and can reach the low 20's.
If you go back over my posts on this topic of soils and fertilizers and ph balances I am always telling people that they might be wasting their money if they do not get on a true land management system that includes soil testing and custom fertilizer management program. And if they do go that route they will see incredible increases in their production
Bez__

What varieties do you have in your hay stand?
Can you estimate the productivity improvement - - input costs divided by the ADDITIONAL tons of forage you now produce?

 

[Bez__]

My estimation if we had done total hay cut puts the costs of soil tests, fertilizer costs and custom spreading at around $7.50 per bale.
What this provides us is hay that is dairy quality and allows us to completely remove grain from the feed costs. It is usually in the 14 plus percent range with a high total digestible intake. The wrapped bales are usually much higher and can reach the low 20's.
If you go back over my posts on this topic of soils and fertilizers and ph balances I am always telling people that they might be wasting their money if they do not get on a true land management system that includes soil testing and custom fertilizer management program. And if they do go that route they will see incredible increases in their production
Bez__

What varieties do you have in your hay stand?
Can you estimate the productivity improvement - - input costs divided by the ADDITIONAL tons of forage you now produce?

We run a lot of orchard grass, a bit of brome, some trefoil (takes a while for it to take but grows great once it catches), and some alfalfa - all is cut before the alfalfa blooms - we never let the alfalfa go into bloom. Every now and then we seem to get some red clover in the mix - never planted it but it seems to show up and then disappear. All varieties are picked by the company that does the work. All grown together plus any vetch that occurs naturally. I do the cuts this way simply because an old guy down road who retired from dairy farming years ago told me that for every ten percent bloom he always figured it was a ten percent loss in nutrients. So no science, just folklore but we follow it now. It is our goal to get to four cuts a year.

The fields are thick and hard to walk through unless you step high - I am just wondering if we can keep this going. One of the additional things we do that I forgot to mention is on the last fertilizer spread of the year we mix seed into the fertilizer at a rate of about 2-3 pounds per acre into the fertilizer and blow it on as well.

We used a Brillion seeder to plant the first grass crop when we took back some crop land - it came up all weeds and I was very disappointed but we cut it anyways - and then followed the program. All I got was weeds every cut the first year. The second year I got the best crop of hay I had ever had in this area - on that new seeding.

Realistically I would say the cost of improvement is not something I can give you directly - using JUST the improvement on tonnage - which I have never figured out - we simply go by the bale count - I can tell you this. The very last year we before we started this program - we were hard pressed to gather in 150 round bales off of the same acres.

It took a lot of trial and error by me before I finally gave up and went to the big boys in the area for help. They steered me onto a good outfit.

I do nothing. All I do is pay. The guys do all the planning and all the work. I literally went in there and told them to make me some hay ground and they did all the rest.

It took a bit of time to get things going and I admit I was skeptical at first but we stuck to the program and it has worked wonders for us.

Rodney was the guy who started it and unfortunately he fell from the top of a silo so I am now working with his assistant, as Rodney will never work again. He and his crew built their business on service and they are good at what they do.

We are not really unique here - there are several commercial hay producers that do this as well and it is those guys who encouraged me to follow along. In fact one of them is my contract square baler guy - has 4 big balers and all the iron to run them - so he comes on time every time we call.

It is our goal - if we stay here - to be able to feed 1,000 head of sheep and sell out the door about 1800 - 2000 lambs unless we go to accelerated breeding in which case we might be able to come close to a number that is about 50% higher. We are tossing the cows over the next few years - by the end of this year we will be down to a few cows for family beef and nothing more.

I will need to feed out about 7,000 pounds of feed a day in the winter when we are at full production and perhaps take that to an even higher level if we go to accelerated breeding so we will have to take back the rented land within the two years to continue to grow - or sell out and move west - which is on the table as well.

Financially when I take into account the reduction in grain purchases, the reduction in chemical application and the increase in the quality of the hay - plus the additional hay to feed I am more than happy with the results.

Any more questions hit me up - I am just a guy who raises animals but am smart enough to use the knowledge of others to help me get there.

Cheers

Bez__

 

[TexasBred]

Financially when I take into account the reduction in grain purchases, the reduction in chemical application and the increase in the quality of the hay - plus the additional hay to feed I am more than happy with the results.

Any more questions hit me up - I am just a guy who raises animals but am smart enough to use the knowledge of others to help me get there.

Cheers

Bez__

Unfortunately this is the part so many are unwilling to pay a few extra bucks for testing and application to obtain.