Soil nutrients VS. oil

[auctionboy]

Is any one else botherd by people saying that corn is so renewable and fossil energy isn't? Does anyone else think that the soils resourse might depleat before the oil? Does anyone think that we should pay, for and use up all of the middle easts resourses before we use ours and all of our soils energy? Or soils are not renewable!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Time for these liberal idiots to see that growing corn for gas (and not having any return to the soils) has its effects and eventuallly leads to desert? Has anyone thought this? Anyones thoughts.

 

[dun]

One thing I have thought of is that they're using petroleum derived fertilizers to grow the corn that will replace the petroleum based fuels.

 

[auctionboy]

How long are or soil and fertilizer reserves good for? Also I would rather have the arabs wanting are fuel the us wanting thers and them charging what would be $12.00/GALLON.

 

[auctionboy]

What I wanted to say is we are not going to be better off with baren land and some oil reserves left. Corn or even fructose is not the answer. The thing that gets me is all of these people saying corn is renewable as if something isn't lost from every crop.

 

[Wewild]

What I wanted to say is we are not going to be better off with baren land and some oil reserves left. Corn or even fructose is not the answer. The thing that gets me is all of these people saying corn is renewable as if something isn't lost from every crop.

Your concern is a valid concern. As you age you will see we as an American don't alway row the boat in the same direction. In the end we will wind up as did Rome.

 

[3MR]

Corn isnt even the best way to make ethanol, its just the cheapest way to start up. The actual energy conversion of what it take to make it compared to the energy you get is rather dismal. I cant believe we arent learning from others mistakes. Those that ignore history are doomed to repeat it. Brazil has been down this road, why arent we learning from them? Are we so arrogant that we must make the same mistake ourselves.

I have a brother like that. You cant just tell him something wont work. He will insist it will not only work, but is better until you show him. Doesnt matter if you or anybody else has been there before or not.

 

[badaxemoo]

Is any one else botherd by people saying that corn is so renewable and fossil energy isn't? Does anyone else think that the soils resourse might depleat before the oil? Does anyone think that we should pay, for and use up all of the middle easts resourses before we use ours and all of our soils energy? Or soils are not renewable!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Time for these liberal idiots to see that growing corn for gas (and not having any return to the soils) has its effects and eventuallly leads to desert? Has anyone thought this? Anyones thoughts.

Liberal idiots?

Are you trying to impress some of your elders on the board?

What does liberal and conservative have to do with the ethanol issue? The backers of corn based ethanol are primarily Democrats and Republicans from the corn belt.

I agree with your basic premise that we can't sacrifice our soil for ethanol, but unnecessarily making this an ideological issue makes me think you're not very well educated.

 

[jj216]

Hes from New York.He couldnt say Yankee idiots or sensitive Wisconsin liberal.

 

[Earl Thigpen]

I guess anyone that knows me would never label me as a liberal, not that has anything to do with ethanol or oil but the US in the next few years will be suckin' hind teat when it comes to oil consumption. China is already consuming more steel than the total world production a few years ago. And they are only one of the consumers of oil.

So here's the liberal part if you so perceive it. We (the world) are all in the same boat. We (the world) will run out of oil.

Ethanol, from any source, is probably not the answer for many reasons not the least of which is stated here. I'm not sure there is enough arible land to grow enough of anything (corn, beets, cain, switch grass) to supply the world with enough ethanol fuel to maintain even the current consumption let alone future demands. And producing ethanol from corn is a net loss (uses more energy to make than it will provide).

So what's the solution? I'd like to hear what you all think. I'll start.

Hydrogen - it can be produced cheaply, there is an abundance of feed stock (water), it has fairly high btu content, waste is water and oxygen and therefore does not contribute to the greenhouse effect. Even some fuel cells use hydrogen if I'm not mistaken.

So what's the downside? Some pundants claim it's dangerous to store, meter and use. So??? So is gasoline. So is propane. So are batteries.

OK, I'm done and yield my soap box to ..... anyone? And if anyone knows how to bump this thread please do so. I sure didn't mean to steal the thread

 

[BAGTIC]

We need better allocation of fuels. Mobile users need fuels that and compact, energy intense, etc. So far those are liquid fuels. Stationary power is more adaptable to alternative fuels.

If we would stop using oil for stationary power plants it could be replaced by many different alternative fuels. I suspect it would be more energy efficient to burn the corn directly than to first convert it to a liquid. Also animal fats such a beef tallow and pork and chicken fats could be usd easily in power plants along with old tires, etc.

When I was in college, back in the late 60's-ealy 70's I read a study of the history of soil erosion in this country. When Iowa was first settled the average topsoil depth was two feet. After less than a century it had declined to half. The rest in sitting in the gulf on Mexico propping up New Orleans where nobody should be living to begin with. We are flushin and blowing away our greatest natural resource.

If everyone adopted the latest energy saving technology (insulation, cogeneration, etc) we could probably become self sufficient again. Forty years ago we were an oil exporting nation and we still produce as much oil as we did then. If we even adopted the building and energy codes common in Europe and Japan for years we could afford to give the camel jockeys the bird.

 

[BAGTIC]

Hydrogen can NOT be produced cheaply. The main source of hydrogen happens to be natural gas. It is more efficient to use the natural gas directly.

 

[auctionboy]

Is any one else botherd by people saying that corn is so renewable and fossil energy isn't? Does anyone else think that the soils resourse might depleat before the oil? Does anyone think that we should pay, for and use up all of the middle easts resourses before we use ours and all of our soils energy? Or soils are not renewable!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Time for these liberal idiots to see that growing corn for gas (and not having any return to the soils) has its effects and eventuallly leads to desert? Has anyone thought this? Anyones thoughts.

Liberal idiots?

Are you trying to impress some of your elders on the board?

What does liberal and conservative have to do with the ethanol issue? The backers of corn based ethanol are primarily Democrats and Republicans from the corn belt.

I agree with your basic premise that we can't sacrifice our soil for ethanol, but unnecessarily making this an ideological issue makes me think you're not very well educated.

Everything is a political issue.

 

[badaxemoo]

Everything is a political issue.

I agree. But sometimes politics are based on ideology (liberal-conservative) and sometimes they are based on something more pragmatic (the most vocal ethanol supporters come form states that grow lots of corn).

You incorrectly put this issue into a liberal-conservative framework. For example, Senators Grassley (R-IA) and Obama (D-IL) are both ethanol supporters. One is a conservative and one is a liberal. They both come from the corn belt.

Why don't you back and edit out the unnecessary slander in your first post so that we can have an intelligent discussion about ethanol.

Or, you could explain to me how support for ethanol can be identified as a liberal stance? Good luck on that one.

 

[auctionboy]

Everything is a political issue.

I agree. But sometimes politics are based on ideology (liberal-conservative) and sometimes they are based on something more pragmatic (the most vocal ethanol supporters come form states that grow lots of corn).

You incorrectly put this issue into a liberal-conservative framework. For example, Senators Grassley (R-IA) and Obama (D-IL) are both ethanol supporters. One is a conservative and one is a liberal. They both come from the corn belt.

Why don't you back and edit out the unnecessary slander in your first post so that we can have an intelligent discussion about ethanol.

Or, you could explain to me how support for ethanol can be identified as a liberal stance? Good luck on that one.

I see, I said liberal idots refering to the people that say corn is one hundred percent renewable and think corn could be produced forever with no slow down do to loss in soils and fertilizer. I think of liberals as people that talk about everything as if they know everything and there view is always right. Please back of there is no politics on this board and I think this has turned into a good post with some good view points and ideas. Earl Thingpen and Bagtic had great responses.

 

[3MR]

Ya know, I go to thinking about this yesterday as I was checking cows

Corn as a renewable resource. At first I agreed with your thought process about it not being a renewable resourse, but then I go to thinking. Corn in itself really is a renewable resourse, even by your argument. It would be the soil that isnt renewable, but then that isnt true either as it all gets returned to the soil eventually either through animal waste or decomposition, just not neccessarily from the same place it was taken from, but it would qualify, at least in my book, as renewable as it all eventually is returned to its original state.

Now if thats not a run-on sentence enough I have more: :lol:

Now I firmly believe this to be true, at this point, of corn; but, would it still hold true of ethanol. does the process of creation and use alter the corn to a point it wont eventualy be returned to the earth in the same state, much like the use of fossil fuels?

While Im thinking about it. Didnt jethro Bodine invent a pill that turned water into gas on one episode of the Beverly Hillbillies, What ever happened to that advanced technology? Or is that something reserved for the 00 spy world?