Snake Bite??? In March

[3waycross]

Or Alergic reaction.

OK so here is how this went. Yesterday we PAP scored 30 yearling bulls. For those who don't know this means running a probe into the heart and measuring the Pulmanary Arterial Pressure. This gives us a very good indicator of how they will do at altitude. This is usually a benign test without complications.
I had two bulls with some footrot so we treated them both with Noramicin(I think that's what it was) and Sulfa, the vet who did the test was out of nuflour and so were we. They both got 6 sulfa boluses. After we finished we hauled them back to the bull pasture and after we fed them we went and ate and went home. Today I couldn't get there to feed and the other folks who have bulls didn't get there until dark thirty. They called me at 8 and said you need to get here RIGHT NOW your #11 bull is swelled up in his throat and is having a hellova time breathing. Apparently they could hear him for 50 yards. So I go out to the ranch and we run him into the corral and the chute.

Meanwhile my friend is on the phone with the vet who did the test and our regular vet and they both say the same thing. Sounds like snakebite, SNAKEBITE IN MARCH my first thought is ridiculous. Apparently it's not ridiculous. Ocassionally a rattlesnake will get baled and when they eat the hay the fangs will scratch their esophagous on the way down and they have a reaction to the venom.

The other option is a reaction to the Sulfa. So the vet tells us Banamine, Dex and a quart of Pennicillian just in case it's a clostridial problem, it doesn't look(or smell) like clostridium but what do I know . Anyway we shoot him full and within a few minutes he's standing up better in the chute and his eyes look much better. So we turn him out is a 100x100' pen by the chute and he seems to feel better. I am headed out to check on him around midnight and my friends will check him at 4 and again at 8am.

any ideas. I have never seen anything like this allergic reaction or snakebite. If it's snakebite he ain't out of the woods yet.

His throat was swelled up around his jaw and he even had some edema around his eyes.

 

[branguscowgirl]

I have heard of someone making book ends out of rattle snake heads and years later someone brushed their hand against a fang and was essentially inoculated with dry venom. So it sounds plausible.
Sulfa allergy sounds reasonable also to me. Any hives?

 

[3waycross]

I have heard of someone making book ends out of rattle snake heads and years later someone brushed their hand against a fang and was essentially inoculated with dry venom. So it sounds plausible.
Sulfa allergy sounds reasonable also to me. Any hives?[/quote]

on a bull? how the heck would you tell. his brows were swelled up over an in thick. These cattle have 3in long hair right now.

 

[greybeard]

I don't know about cattle allergenic reactions, but with people, many who are allergic to penicillin were also allergic to sulfa drugs. I'm one of them.

 

[3waycross]

I don't know about cattle allergenic reactions, but with people, many who are allergic to penicillin were also allergic to sulfa drugs. I'm one of them.

So we just pumped a quart of pennicilan into him. I sure hope he died quick and didn't suffer(just kidding)

 

[branguscowgirl]

You can feel hives by just running your fingers over them. I have had horses and dogs get hives with med reactions. First thing I noticed was their hair was bristled up. The welts with the hives made it do that.

 

[wbvs58]

It sounds like an allergic reaction to me Vic. How you described the swelling around the throat and the eyes is very suggestive of an allergic reaction their eyelids will be very puffy and can hardly see out of narrow slits. If it was from the drugs I would expect the reaction within an hour of receiving them. It sounds like he got some help from the dexamethasone further pointing to allergic reaction.
Ken

 

[inyati13]

Nothing is impossible. But the snakebite explanation is far fetched IMO when an allergic reaction fits the circumstances.

Note: The rattlesnakes in Colorado are mostly Prairie Rattlesnakes. I hunted rattlesnakes in the Pawnee National Grasslands in NE CO. Most of the Prairie Rattlesnakes were small. It is likely some do get picked up and baled. I have seen the dried carcasses of snakes in hay. If they were picked-up in a bale, they could be preserved in a somewhat mummy fashion. However, the efficacy of delivering an exposure to venom that retains any potency is going to be diminished.

 

[Lucky_P]

Agree w/ Ken - most likely an allergic reaction...to what, you'll likely never know.

I'm inclined to agree that the dried/baled rattlesnake idea is even beyond far-fetched; I'm not sure that the venom(a protein) would survive the decomposition/mummification process - and even if it were still active in its dried form...you could ingest a bunch of it, and it would cause no ill effects - it would be digested in the stomach/intestinal tract just like a glass of milk. Bet it doesn't taste very good, though...
Whoever told branguscowgirl that tale was spinning quite a yarn; just being scratched by a fang does not equal envenomation.

 

[inyati13]

Agree w/ Ken - most likely an allergic reaction...to what, you'll likely never know.

I'm inclined to agree that the dried/baled rattlesnake idea is even beyond far-fetched; I'm not sure that the venom(a protein) would survive the decomposition/mummification process - and even if it were still active in its dried form...you could ingest a bunch of it, and it would cause no ill effects - it would be digested in the stomach/intestinal tract just like a glass of milk. Bet it doesn't taste very good, though...
Whoever told branguscowgirl that tale was spinning quite a yarn; just being scratched by a fang does not equal envenomation.

That tale has been around for 40 years. An oldie for sure, but getting kinda wore out. Yes. It takes contraction of the temporal muscles over the venom glands to deliver the venom.

 

[3waycross]

I went and checked him at midnight and he looked better. Was still acting like he was trying to cough up something so I am sure his breathing was still a little restricted. I am with you guys on the snake theory but both vets swear they have seen it happen. I am sure praying for a full and quick recovery. Our bull sale is on the 22nd.

 

[dun]

Whoever told branguscowgirl that tale was spinning quite a yarn; just being scratched by a fang does not equal envenomation.

Longer then that in one version or another. The version I heard in the 50s was a guy got bit through his boot and died. Several years later his son put the boots on and the fang had broken off in it and he got scratched and died.

 

[dun]

Curious if epinephrin would have helped or still might. Or is it only good for anaphalactic shock? I wonder how you would get a handfull of benedryl down a bulls throat.

 

[Hook]

Id think allergic reaction too. You'll know soon enough. If it was a snake bite it will be a long recovery.
Good luck either way

 

[branguscowgirl]

Agree w/ Ken - most likely an allergic reaction...to what, you'll likely never know.

I'm inclined to agree that the dried/baled rattlesnake idea is even beyond far-fetched; I'm not sure that the venom(a protein) would survive the decomposition/mummification process - and even if it were still active in its dried form...you could ingest a bunch of it, and it would cause no ill effects - it would be digested in the stomach/intestinal tract just like a glass of milk. Bet it doesn't taste very good, though...
Whoever told branguscowgirl that tale was spinning quite a yarn; just being scratched by a fang does not equal envenomation.

That tale has been around for 40 years. An oldie for sure, but getting kinda wore out. Yes. It takes contraction of the temporal muscles over the venom glands to deliver the venom.

Ok. I will discard that tale from my memory!

 

[inyati13]

Whoever told branguscowgirl that tale was spinning quite a yarn; just being scratched by a fang does not equal envenomation.

Longer then that in one version or another. The version I heard in the 50s was a guy got bit through his boot and died. Several years later his son put the boots on and the fang had broken off in it and he got scratched and died.

That one was in a book called "Serpents and Myths". Or something like that. I read it 45 years ago in High School. That was actually almost as good as the one about a fishing crew on the Amazon River. An anaconda crawled into the boat during the night, swallowed the entire crew of three. Then, the port it came in through as too small for it to escape. A rescue team found the boat adrift. Shot the snake and recovered the three bodies.

 

[3waycross]

UPDATE. Bull looks and acts fine this morning. Vet tells me today that he thinks that he got the sulfa into his bloodstream when we were administering the boluses cuz the balling gun came up with some blood on it after the first attempt.

Anyway hopefulle he is fine. There is no swelling at all this morning.

 

[branguscowgirl]

Great news 3way!

 

[hillsdown]

UPDATE. Bull looks and acts fine this morning. Vet tells me today that he thinks that he got the sulfa into his bloodstream when we were administering the boluses cuz the balling gun came up with some blood on it after the first attempt.

Anyway hopefulle he is fine. There is no swelling at all this morning.

Fantastic news!!!!!!

 

[cowwrangler]

thats good news,dang you are having some luck this year