Small Farm in NE Texas

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Daingerfield, Texas
I'm putting together a small hobby farm in NE Texas. While I have about 133 acres, it is hilly and perhaps 12-15 acres can be set aside for grass. I enjoy tinkering and optimizing, and while I am a complete amateur in Ag, I do have a background in molecular biology et c and a number of friends who understand the practical side of things. To that end, I want to use my tiny operation to learn and experiment in ways that might be useful beyhond the tiny amount of product that I make.

Broadly, the three big avenues that I want to explore are perennial, dhurrin-free grain sorghum (though unfortunately "perennial" and "dhurrin-free" are both available but mutually exclusive and dhurrin-free is patent protected), high efficiency, high fat milk production via Jersey genetics and high efficiency high tenderness terminal cross calves. I have globally found that jumping into an arena and deciding that you'll do something better than the folks who have been working on those problems for decades because you're smarter very rarely turns out well. I have also found that there ARE gaps where outsiders can make inroads IF you find niches where separate groups of highly optimized industries remain separate. In this case, I think that the gap between dairy and beef production as well as what I see as the underutilization of what are now hay pastures in the American Southeast provides me an opportunity to at least try to use my knowledge and tiny acreage to provide a common benefit (as the posters in Jimmy John's say: "Experience is what you get when you didn't get what you wanted."

For starters, sorghum. It is always best if you aren't the ONLY person who thinks your idea is good, and it is even better if you can identify why "your" idea isn't already popular. In the case of sorghum, that's pretty easy. First, it started at a cultural disadvantage against wheat, corn, hay grasses, millet oats et c., and has steadily proven itself despite that. Second, hydrogen cyanide is bad for people and cows. There is as of this year a dhurrin-free variety, and there will be more. Second, and this is a bigger picture item, C4 photosynthesis is more efficient than C3 photosynthesis, and that advantage becomes progressively more pronounced the warmer the climate. Wheat and traditional hay grasses aren't at a terrible disadvantage in Kansas or SD, but in Oklahoma, Texas, Lousiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, Florida, et c, C4 crops can do far better. Corn is the other popular C4 plant, and it dominates due to that inherent advantage in Iowa and Wisconsin. Perennial crops are a separate but similar effort, with a few small private non-profits working with universities. Kernza is the best known through the Land Institute in Kansas with UMN, but they are also working on a perennial sorghum with Texas A&M (though this effort is completely separate from the dhurrin-free effort from Indiana).

Hybrid sorghum-sudangrass appears to be problematic in the SE because it is TOO productive and grows back up through windrows before the cut stuff can dry. Grain sorghum doesn't have that problem, but if you have an excess of primary productivity that you need to harness, that's a far better problem than not enough that you are fully exploiting. Physics sets limits on how many photons we can turn into people and cow food; finding those limits and then exploiting as much as possible is, usually, a winning strategy. Thus, my first goal is to learn to grow sorghum that won't kill me or animals, whether through harvesting or spending for dhurrin-free seed. The payout is that low-intensity land that currently only produces hay could one day produce grain and hay, possibly with yields similar to what we are seeing with single purpose crops.

Concurrent with that, I want to start (extremely) small with a pet cow and one calf. In cattle genetics, the two biggest productivity outliers are Jerseys and the DM breeds (Piedmontese, Belgian Blue, some Limousin et c). That is not a value judgement on raising beef cattle and economics; it's a very narrow statement on "these breeds do one specific thing to a much greater degree than any other breed". In the case of Jerseys that's turn grass into milk calories (NOT volume) and in the case of the DM breeds that's turn grass into meat. As in most cases, if those attributes were all that mattered, EVERYONE would be raising just those breeds; this is clearly not the case. As it happens that there are a lot of factors which make for a profitable beef operation, and even elevated FCR resulting from myostatin deficiency isn't simple, either agronomically or economically.

I think that's the niche that I can fill because my risk is a pet cow and her calf and some straws (I have a portable -80C freezer, so that's not even an expense). The specific thing that I want to try is crossing a Piedmontese bull with a Jersey (probably A2/A2 Beta-casein, just to try and have that economic niche if I can actually sell milk products some day) using female sexed semen (for a project this small, the added cost in money is minimal vs the added cost in time). Piedmontese, like most Italian breeds, have about 70% A2, so there is a decent chance that I get an A2/A2 calf without a lot of extra effort. Ideally, that gets me an A2/A2 myo+/myo- heifer with a slight increase in muscle mass, but not so significant that she cannot calve. The goal will then be to continue back-crossing that line with female-sexed A2/A2 Jersey semen with the aim of producing an animal that is a slightly heavier Jersey with one functional myostatin gene. If the F1 is A1/A2 beta casein, that problem will probably work itself out either because the A2/A2 fad dies out or one of the Jersey back-crosses renders the line A2/A2.

Assuming that I can work through whatever problems inevitable arise, that plan address two goals: 1) gives me years only with two cows to feed while I figure out how to grow (non-toxic) cow food and 2) ideally, eventually produces a >88%+ Jersey cow with myo+/myo- genetics but little else from the remote Piedmontese parent. The goal at that point is to set myself up for terminal crosses with Piedmontese semen to produce 50% double muscled calves as terminal beefxdairy crosses. Notably 50% of the calves, both terminal crosses for beef AND replacement cows will need to be veal. I.e. 50% of the replacement cows will get a myo+ from mom and 100% will get a myo+ from dad, resulting in a regular old jersey cow EVEN IF I pay for female-sexed semen. The terminal beefxdairy crosses will also suffer from 50% being useless, as mom will provide a functional myostatin gene to exactly half of them even though the Piedmontese semen is myo-/myo-. A JerseyxPiedmontese will command the opposite of a premium at sale, will still be inferior to any beef breed for meat and honestly they should probably go to the freezer as soon as possible.

Globally, the plan is to keep the momma cows as high value dairy animals, the calves to 18-24 months for meat, but while I am building up infrastructure and learning the ropes, I am content to let the momma cows just be moms without a lot of milking effort on my end.

For anyone who made it through all of that, I am really curious about opinions. I don't have any money into this yet, and even several years in won't have spent much that cannot be readily converted into keeping normal types of cows. I think that theoretically, the biggest problem is what to do with half of the calves that don't manifest any particularly good traits. My thought is "Google veal recipes, this isn't a problem", but I really want some feedback on the long term cost issues with this plan at scale. I also have all of the usual questions about starting up from scratch, but I have a lot of folks close by to help with that and I can use the forum search feature as well.

Thanks!
 
I think that's the niche that I can fill because my risk is a pet cow and her calf and some straws (I have a portable -80C freezer, so that's not even an expense).
Is that cold enough? Semen is stored in liquid nitrogen approximately -200°C.

I am content to let the momma cows just be moms without a lot of milking effort on my end.
Jersey will produce more milk than one calf can eat. You will need more than one calf per cow to keep the cow(s) milked. Kenny Thomas or TexasJerseyMilker would have more information.
 
Is that cold enough? Semen is stored in liquid nitrogen approximately -200°C.


Jersey will produce more milk than one calf can eat. You will need more than one calf per cow to keep the cow(s) milked. Kenny Thomas or TexasJerseyMilker would have more information.
Unsure on temperature. Renting a dewar isn't the end of the world, I just don't like lN2. As for milk production, I bought a couple of old surge milkers and restored them for fun. The skills that come form learning to use them are really only useful on a homestead scale, but that's part of the fun for me.
 
Using Piedmontese on jerseys is not a good idea in my opinion... Simply from the experience of the size of piedmontese calves. Jerseys will have trouble calving these broader built calves. I had bred several angus cows... not heifers... to piedmontese years ago....and I used some Belgian Blue semen also.... every single one had trouble calving and had to be pulled... Jersey's are not built to have these big broad calves.

Limousin calves much slimmer built front ends and are not near as difficult to calve. But again... Jerseys are not designed to have bigger heads and shoulders in calves.

Jersey cows cannot just raise one calf unless they are a pi$$poor animal... They will produce anywhere from 30-70 lbs milk a day.... which is 4-10 gallons a day. Most on dairies will produce an average 5-6 gallons a day. Baby calves will need at least 1/2-3/4 gallon milk a milking (twice a day) after about a week or so... as they get used to the quantity and quality....
I use jerseys as nurse cows, besides having contact with them as a milk tester for over 30 years... I put an average 3 calves on each cow......and sometimes they do not use all the milk and I will milk some from them daily....

Many people/farmers/ranchers on here have jerseys to use as nurse cows and raise up alot of calves on them.

Not sure why you say that half the calves won't manifest any good traits... I raise jersey bull calves up as steers for meat for the freezer... They do not put on the muscle or fat that a beef breed calf will in the time they do it... but jersey beef is a very good beef to eat. The meat is sweeter tasting and marbles good. Many on here that have had it will tell you that jersey beef is very good. They will finish well on good grass with little grain and will put on more external fat if grained... The 1/2 beef calves put on more weight and fill out better for beef animals... have had several 1/2 jersey 1/2 angus heifers that I have kept to use in the beef herd. They sometimes will milk more than 1 calf can use... some will take after the jersey more and make too much milk for 1 calf... some take after the beef more and don't make as much milk as the more "jersey influenced" ones...

We also grow sorghum/sudan and make most of all of it as dry forage..... Much of that is dependent on the humidity in the air to get it dry... we will tedd it out to help dry it in more humid conditions... This past year we were very dry and made all of our hay in very good dry conditions. Some of the s/s will come up through it but it doesn't seem to affect the regrowth... it jumps out of the ground as soon as the harvested growth is removed in rolls... We get 2 normal cuttings of it. We grow it in part of the rotation of s/s, corn and putting the fields back into orchard grass for hay.
 
I'm putting together a small hobby farm in NE Texas. While I have about 133 acres, it is hilly and perhaps 12-15 acres can be set aside for grass. I enjoy tinkering and optimizing, and while I am a complete amateur in Ag, I do have a background in molecular biology et c and a number of friends who understand the practical side of things. To that end, I want to use my tiny operation to learn and experiment in ways that might be useful beyhond the tiny amount of product that I make.

Broadly, the three big avenues that I want to explore are perennial, dhurrin-free grain sorghum (though unfortunately "perennial" and "dhurrin-free" are both available but mutually exclusive and dhurrin-free is patent protected), high efficiency, high fat milk production via Jersey genetics and high efficiency high tenderness terminal cross calves. I have globally found that jumping into an arena and deciding that you'll do something better than the folks who have been working on those problems for decades because you're smarter very rarely turns out well. I have also found that there ARE gaps where outsiders can make inroads IF you find niches where separate groups of highly optimized industries remain separate. In this case, I think that the gap between dairy and beef production as well as what I see as the underutilization of what are now hay pastures in the American Southeast provides me an opportunity to at least try to use my knowledge and tiny acreage to provide a common benefit (as the posters in Jimmy John's say: "Experience is what you get when you didn't get what you wanted."

For starters, sorghum. It is always best if you aren't the ONLY person who thinks your idea is good, and it is even better if you can identify why "your" idea isn't already popular. In the case of sorghum, that's pretty easy. First, it started at a cultural disadvantage against wheat, corn, hay grasses, millet oats et c., and has steadily proven itself despite that. Second, hydrogen cyanide is bad for people and cows. There is as of this year a dhurrin-free variety, and there will be more. Second, and this is a bigger picture item, C4 photosynthesis is more efficient than C3 photosynthesis, and that advantage becomes progressively more pronounced the warmer the climate. Wheat and traditional hay grasses aren't at a terrible disadvantage in Kansas or SD, but in Oklahoma, Texas, Lousiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, Florida, et c, C4 crops can do far better. Corn is the other popular C4 plant, and it dominates due to that inherent advantage in Iowa and Wisconsin. Perennial crops are a separate but similar effort, with a few small private non-profits working with universities. Kernza is the best known through the Land Institute in Kansas with UMN, but they are also working on a perennial sorghum with Texas A&M (though this effort is completely separate from the dhurrin-free effort from Indiana).

Hybrid sorghum-sudangrass appears to be problematic in the SE because it is TOO productive and grows back up through windrows before the cut stuff can dry. Grain sorghum doesn't have that problem, but if you have an excess of primary productivity that you need to harness, that's a far better problem than not enough that you are fully exploiting. Physics sets limits on how many photons we can turn into people and cow food; finding those limits and then exploiting as much as possible is, usually, a winning strategy. Thus, my first goal is to learn to grow sorghum that won't kill me or animals, whether through harvesting or spending for dhurrin-free seed. The payout is that low-intensity land that currently only produces hay could one day produce grain and hay, possibly with yields similar to what we are seeing with single purpose crops.

Concurrent with that, I want to start (extremely) small with a pet cow and one calf. In cattle genetics, the two biggest productivity outliers are Jerseys and the DM breeds (Piedmontese, Belgian Blue, some Limousin et c). That is not a value judgement on raising beef cattle and economics; it's a very narrow statement on "these breeds do one specific thing to a much greater degree than any other breed". In the case of Jerseys that's turn grass into milk calories (NOT volume) and in the case of the DM breeds that's turn grass into meat. As in most cases, if those attributes were all that mattered, EVERYONE would be raising just those breeds; this is clearly not the case. As it happens that there are a lot of factors which make for a profitable beef operation, and even elevated FCR resulting from myostatin deficiency isn't simple, either agronomically or economically.

I think that's the niche that I can fill because my risk is a pet cow and her calf and some straws (I have a portable -80C freezer, so that's not even an expense). The specific thing that I want to try is crossing a Piedmontese bull with a Jersey (probably A2/A2 Beta-casein, just to try and have that economic niche if I can actually sell milk products some day) using female sexed semen (for a project this small, the added cost in money is minimal vs the added cost in time). Piedmontese, like most Italian breeds, have about 70% A2, so there is a decent chance that I get an A2/A2 calf without a lot of extra effort. Ideally, that gets me an A2/A2 myo+/myo- heifer with a slight increase in muscle mass, but not so significant that she cannot calve. The goal will then be to continue back-crossing that line with female-sexed A2/A2 Jersey semen with the aim of producing an animal that is a slightly heavier Jersey with one functional myostatin gene. If the F1 is A1/A2 beta casein, that problem will probably work itself out either because the A2/A2 fad dies out or one of the Jersey back-crosses renders the line A2/A2.

Assuming that I can work through whatever problems inevitable arise, that plan address two goals: 1) gives me years only with two cows to feed while I figure out how to grow (non-toxic) cow food and 2) ideally, eventually produces a >88%+ Jersey cow with myo+/myo- genetics but little else from the remote Piedmontese parent. The goal at that point is to set myself up for terminal crosses with Piedmontese semen to produce 50% double muscled calves as terminal beefxdairy crosses. Notably 50% of the calves, both terminal crosses for beef AND replacement cows will need to be veal. I.e. 50% of the replacement cows will get a myo+ from mom and 100% will get a myo+ from dad, resulting in a regular old jersey cow EVEN IF I pay for female-sexed semen. The terminal beefxdairy crosses will also suffer from 50% being useless, as mom will provide a functional myostatin gene to exactly half of them even though the Piedmontese semen is myo-/myo-. A JerseyxPiedmontese will command the opposite of a premium at sale, will still be inferior to any beef breed for meat and honestly they should probably go to the freezer as soon as possible.

Globally, the plan is to keep the momma cows as high value dairy animals, the calves to 18-24 months for meat, but while I am building up infrastructure and learning the ropes, I am content to let the momma cows just be moms without a lot of milking effort on my end.

For anyone who made it through all of that, I am really curious about opinions. I don't have any money into this yet, and even several years in won't have spent much that cannot be readily converted into keeping normal types of cows. I think that theoretically, the biggest problem is what to do with half of the calves that don't manifest any particularly good traits. My thought is "Google veal recipes, this isn't a problem", but I really want some feedback on the long term cost issues with this plan at scale. I also have all of the usual questions about starting up from scratch, but I have a lot of folks close by to help with that and I can use the forum search feature as well.

Thanks!

My first opinion is that you should go to your profile and put your location on it because so much conversation here is related to location.
 
Using Piedmontese on jerseys is not a good idea in my opinion... Simply from the experience of the size of piedmontese calves. Jerseys will have trouble calving these broader built calves. I had bred several angus cows... not heifers... to piedmontese years ago....and I used some Belgian Blue semen also.... every single one had trouble calving and had to be pulled... Jersey's are not built to have these big broad calves.

Limousin calves much slimmer built front ends and are not near as difficult to calve. But again... Jerseys are not designed to have bigger heads and shoulders in calves.

Jersey cows cannot just raise one calf unless they are a pi$$poor animal... They will produce anywhere from 30-70 lbs milk a day.... which is 4-10 gallons a day. Most on dairies will produce an average 5-6 gallons a day. Baby calves will need at least 1/2-3/4 gallon milk a milking (twice a day) after about a week or so... as they get used to the quantity and quality....
I use jerseys as nurse cows, besides having contact with them as a milk tester for over 30 years... I put an average 3 calves on each cow......and sometimes they do not use all the milk and I will milk some from them daily....

Many people/farmers/ranchers on here have jerseys to use as nurse cows and raise up alot of calves on them.

Not sure why you say that half the calves won't manifest any good traits... I raise jersey bull calves up as steers for meat for the freezer... They do not put on the muscle or fat that a beef breed calf will in the time they do it... but jersey beef is a very good beef to eat. The meat is sweeter tasting and marbles good. Many on here that have had it will tell you that jersey beef is very good. They will finish well on good grass with little grain and will put on more external fat if grained... The 1/2 beef calves put on more weight and fill out better for beef animals... have had several 1/2 jersey 1/2 angus heifers that I have kept to use in the beef herd. They sometimes will milk more than 1 calf can use... some will take after the jersey more and make too much milk for 1 calf... some take after the beef more and don't make as much milk as the more "jersey influenced" ones...

We also grow sorghum/sudan and make most of all of it as dry forage..... Much of that is dependent on the humidity in the air to get it dry... we will tedd it out to help dry it in more humid conditions... This past year we were very dry and made all of our hay in very good dry conditions. Some of the s/s will come up through it but it doesn't seem to affect the regrowth... it jumps out of the ground as soon as the harvested growth is removed in rolls... We get 2 normal cuttings of it. We grow it in part of the rotation of s/s, corn and putting the fields back into orchard grass for hay.

I really appreciate all of the wisdom. Let me ask you a few follow ups/clarify a few things.

1) My goal is ultimately to run a small dairy, if only for personal use. The added milk production from the Jerseys is a major goal for this plan; it's only really an issue early on when I am boot-strapping a lot of different things all at once and milking may be more than I can handle. The easy solution might be to buy 1-2 extra calves from neighbors, which shouldn't be much of an issue.

2) The calving issues are perhaps the major challenge to overcome long term, and I had thought more about Piedmontese vs Limousin due to my erroneous assumption that Piedmontese made smaller calves than Limousin. I hadn't considered the body conformation aspect. I'm not married to any particular DM breed, but to the concept of a myostatin mutant heterozygous Jersey cow with nearly all Jersey genetics which produces markedly larger offspring when not bred to produce a replacement. Breeding F94L into the maternal line for the milking/momma cows and then using Q240X semen for the terminal cross beef cows might be easier on calving that the Piedmontese cross. A separate idea might be to try to choose relatively small Piedmontese bulls for the terminal cross semen and a relatively large Piedmontese bull as the source of the initial cross for the line of momma cows.

As for the sorghum, I have seen repeatedly that unless it is very dry, a mower conditioner helps a LOT with breaking up the stems and getting the moisture low enough. I'm a getting a well-loved 4x5' round baler (NH 648 if curious), so stalks may be more of an adventure than just T85. Still, the learning is the fun of it for me.

Thanks so much, and any further thoughts/knowledge is greatly appreciated.
 
We use NH 660 and 664, and another in that series.... round balers.... make the bales 5x5 and 5x6. Don't have any real issues with any sorghum-sudan we grow. Due to weather conditions, being able to foresee a window of time to get it dry.... it might be 4-6 ft tall and at times has been as tall 8+ ft.. We have wrapped it for baleage when there is just no window and it has to get cut. Surprisingly, the cows seem to prefer it dry baled... but there is waste with the coarser stems as it gets bigger before getting it cut.

The "easy solution" of buying a couple more calves to put on the jerseys...is not always "easy"..... yes, I buy some calves to put on them. NOT all cows will accept calves to be fostered on them... and a kicking cow will discourage a calf in a hurry. Calves are costing a small fortune now... when you could once buy a decent bull calf to foster on a cow for $75-200, now they are costing $250 to $900 and some have hit $1000 for a black calf. You also do not want to buy from a stock yard if you possibly find and can buy off a dairy. Once in a blue moon you will find a beef calf that has been split off a cow at a stockyard... usually the cow has problems and the calf cannot suck her... bad teats, not much milk, mastitis problems... and those calves do good once fostered... but the chances of finding them right when you need them is also a real gamble. The best way to find calves is off a dairy... and they will be straight dairy breed (mostly holsteins) or often a black angus or simmental or limousin bull used on a dairy cow so most will be black. Those calves are bringing a premium price here.
I work in the dairy industry and many farms now have contracted their calves direct to buyers that pick them up once or twice a week. At one time calves were a dime a dozen and barely would pay the farmer to take them to town to the sale...

Beef cattle are known to produce milk in the 4-6% butterfat range so there is no real improvement of the milk aspect. I have many dairies that I test that have holsteins that produce 4% and better butterfat. The holsteins have the frame to handle the bigger calves and they produce copious amounts of milk. Most now average better than 70-80 lbs of milk a day. That's 8-10 gallons per day.

Limousins tend to be longer slimmer calves and the dm genes often do not show up in the calves until they are a week or more old. The BB and the Pieds will be obvious right from birth. Not all Limi's have the dm gene either... You will find them hard to acquire in the US, in the limi's.

If you are just raising them for home use/individual beef sales then yes, you will get more meat from a dm breed. They are heavily discounted in the general scheme of things at a stockyard..... the packers do not seem to want them in the feedlots or hanging on the rail either.

Please go to your name top right, down to account details and down to location and put in a location... state area or something similar. It helps when you talk about things on your farm, crops and such.
 
I really appreciate all of the wisdom. Let me ask you a few follow ups/clarify a few things.

1) My goal is ultimately to run a small dairy, if only for personal use. The added milk production from the Jerseys is a major goal for this plan; it's only really an issue early on when I am boot-strapping a lot of different things all at once and milking may be more than I can handle. The easy solution might be to buy 1-2 extra calves from neighbors, which shouldn't be much of an issue.

2) The calving issues are perhaps the major challenge to overcome long term, and I had thought more about Piedmontese vs Limousin due to my erroneous assumption that Piedmontese made smaller calves than Limousin. I hadn't considered the body conformation aspect. I'm not married to any particular DM breed, but to the concept of a myostatin mutant heterozygous Jersey cow with nearly all Jersey genetics which produces markedly larger offspring when not bred to produce a replacement. Breeding F94L into the maternal line for the milking/momma cows and then using Q240X semen for the terminal cross beef cows might be easier on calving that the Piedmontese cross. A separate idea might be to try to choose relatively small Piedmontese bulls for the terminal cross semen and a relatively large Piedmontese bull as the source of the initial cross for the line of momma cows.

As for the sorghum, I have seen repeatedly that unless it is very dry, a mower conditioner helps a LOT with breaking up the stems and getting the moisture low enough. I'm a getting a well-loved 4x5' round baler (NH 648 if curious), so stalks may be more of an adventure than just T85. Still, the learning is the fun of it for me.

Thanks so much, and any further thoughts/knowledge is greatly appreciated.
So if you are running a dairy... are you really interested in having calves on the cow? Why?

As for using terminal crosses from a dairy foundation, most people begin with Holsteins due to their size, growth, and calving abilities. In Europe they will use the F1 heifers to produce an F2 generation which is terminal, and the heifers may have one or two calves and then go to slaughter before they get too old so they are still considered high quality meat.

I don't really think there is any reason to stick to any specific double muscled breed in terminal crosses. There are easier calving bulls in any breed and saying this or that breed is one to use or stay away from is misunderstanding the variation within breeds where you can find the bulls you need across the breed spectrum. Bull selection is more important than breed selection.

I've used DM genetics with a beef base and found great results for terminal crosses and never had issues with the typical paranoia over birth problems. But I selected my cows for maternal traits and size, and my bulls for CE.
 
Why did you pass over the Red Poll cow she is a meat and will provide milk and is a bigger cow that could work better with the type of bull you want try? Good luck I wish you best and glad you found us
 
Why did you pass over the Red Poll cow she is a meat and will provide milk and is a bigger cow that could work better with the type of bull you want try? Good luck I wish you best and glad you found us

I think that's a great question, and it's actually one that I have considered quite a bit. Big picture, my two goals are get some meat, cheese and butter from me and my family, with the hope that something that I do might pave the way for future insights that move everyone forward. If I only had the first goal, I would raise Dexters, Red Polls or any of the other heritage breeds and be done with it. "A small family needs an animal that turns grass into milk and meat" is a problem that humans solved a long time ago; I am not gonna move that forward. The second goal, trying crazy stuff out that is too risky for a big operation, is a place where my extremely high tolerance for risk puts me at an advantage.

That's the reason for my fascination with extremes, and in particular with myostatin mutations. None of that matters for my scale; as pointed out above, the amount of milk that Jerseys produce will be a problem that I have to address rather than a feature for at least a few years. Specifically, the challenge of using a genetic myostatin deficiency to produce calves from dairy cows that fill out substantially more than even a beefxdairy could is an interesting problem to me. Again, even if wildly successful, this is still a money losing hobby for me, but the prospect of spurring ideas that result in measurable improvements at scale excites me. In the certain event that it doesn't work out exactly as I intended, the costs are low enough to look for solutions or cut my losses, and in the likely event that it doesn't work out at all, I can still say that I learned a lot and had fun (and then buy Red Polls/Dexters et c.).

I hope that makes a bit more sense.
 
So if you are running a dairy... are you really interested in having calves on the cow? Why?

As for using terminal crosses from a dairy foundation, most people begin with Holsteins due to their size, growth, and calving abilities. In Europe they will use the F1 heifers to produce an F2 generation which is terminal, and the heifers may have one or two calves and then go to slaughter before they get too old so they are still considered high quality meat.

I don't really think there is any reason to stick to any specific double muscled breed in terminal crosses. There are easier calving bulls in any breed and saying this or that breed is one to use or stay away from is misunderstanding the variation within breeds where you can find the bulls you need across the breed spectrum. Bull selection is more important than breed selection.

I've used DM genetics with a beef base and found great results for terminal crosses and never had issues with the typical paranoia over birth problems. But I selected my cows for maternal traits and size, and my bulls for CE.

Let me respond in bullet format so that we can keep things sort of organized.

1) I think I have the location thing fixed. There are two "location" text boxes in the profile tab, and the lower one is the one that displays.
2) Bear in mind that this is a project/hobby/"research project" et c. Even the best case result from my end will require a ton of tweaking by folks who actually know what they're doing to ever get scaled up. So my idea of a "dairy" is rebuilt surge milkers and cheese+butter for my family. The confusion is around the fact that some of the things that I am interested in are only important at the opposite end of scale, but useless at the scale that I'll be working at. There are two VERY different goals at work here, not necessarily opposed to one another, but different enough that they require unusual compromises.

3) I really appreciate yours and Jans insight on calving. My experience in that realm is limited to helping people "calve", reading James Herriot's memoirs and listening to stories from former large animal vets about how they became small animal vets. I am very interested in the idea of exploiting size differences within breeds, and that's kind of the idea behind this whole project. Namely, I'm trying to whittle a LOT of positive carcass traits down to one genetic mutation that I can effectively test for, which should in theory open up the door for selecting for a bunch of other more complex traits. The immediate issue is getting the calves out of the cows, but the longer term issue is preserving the positive jersey genetics. As many have pointed out, if I don't clear the first hurdle, the second is irrelevant.

I really appreciate the insight, and to summarize I see a vote for Limousin instead of Piedmontese genetics to get narrower bodied calves at the cost of slightly less meat at sale, a vote for using Holstein genetics to make a slightly larger dairy cow, and a vote for using intra-breed calf size variation as opposed to inter-breed variation. I would love to spark some debate on these questions, as the more that I can narrow that down, the less effort I have to put into using experimentation to answer the questions.

The idea of using a HolsteinxJersey to get a bigger cow OR simply starting with a Guernsey is one idea. Guernsey is affordable at my scale, BUT unsexed semen is $150/straw and Guernsey cows are a luxury item. I worry that going the Guernsey route saves me 2 years at the outset, BUT down the road (assuming that this project isn't a complete failure) either scares people away or causes them to have to go back and replicate my idea with a HolsteinxJersey anyway.

That pathway probably pairs well with exploring some options for calving ease. One issue is that I am somewhat at the mercy of people selling semen: very few straws are advertised as "absolutely GARGANTUAN calves, buy our straws and put your vet's kids through college!" That makes it harder for a nobody like me (cheating me carries very little risk of reputational harm) to choose straws WITHIN a breed, since my aim is small calves out of well muscled bulls: I have to take the seller's word on how big the calves were. I think that most folks are honest, but dishonest folks survive by effectively pretending to be honest and I lack the contacts and experience to sort that out. There is also the issue that what I'm asking for is unique, and the honest answer from good folks is likely to be: "Man, that might work, but I'm honesty not sure. You're welcome to try, but I can't guarantee anything." To that end, Jan's suggestion about Limousin seems like a safer play to me, but if I had a good chance of getting Piedmontese semen that would produce small calves, the ceiling is higher on that play. No reward without risk, as they say.

Distilling all of that into a few questions:
1) is it reasonable to contact folks selling semen and ask about calf size (and expect a useful/honest answer)?

2) Is it possible to find HolsteinxJersey crosses from dairies that could still put out a calf? I can ask around on this one as well, but I figure I'll steal whatever knowledge y'all are willing to part with.

Thanks again!
 
Let me respond in bullet format so that we can keep things sort of organized.

1) I think I have the location thing fixed. There are two "location" text boxes in the profile tab, and the lower one is the one that displays.
2) Bear in mind that this is a project/hobby/"research project" et c. Even the best case result from my end will require a ton of tweaking by folks who actually know what they're doing to ever get scaled up. So my idea of a "dairy" is rebuilt surge milkers and cheese+butter for my family. The confusion is around the fact that some of the things that I am interested in are only important at the opposite end of scale, but useless at the scale that I'll be working at. There are two VERY different goals at work here, not necessarily opposed to one another, but different enough that they require unusual compromises.

3) I really appreciate yours and Jans insight on calving. My experience in that realm is limited to helping people "calve", reading James Herriot's memoirs and listening to stories from former large animal vets about how they became small animal vets. I am very interested in the idea of exploiting size differences within breeds, and that's kind of the idea behind this whole project. Namely, I'm trying to whittle a LOT of positive carcass traits down to one genetic mutation that I can effectively test for, which should in theory open up the door for selecting for a bunch of other more complex traits. The immediate issue is getting the calves out of the cows, but the longer term issue is preserving the positive jersey genetics. As many have pointed out, if I don't clear the first hurdle, the second is irrelevant.

I really appreciate the insight, and to summarize I see a vote for Limousin instead of Piedmontese genetics to get narrower bodied calves at the cost of slightly less meat at sale, a vote for using Holstein genetics to make a slightly larger dairy cow, and a vote for using intra-breed calf size variation as opposed to inter-breed variation. I would love to spark some debate on these questions, as the more that I can narrow that down, the less effort I have to put into using experimentation to answer the questions.

The idea of using a HolsteinxJersey to get a bigger cow OR simply starting with a Guernsey is one idea. Guernsey is affordable at my scale, BUT unsexed semen is $150/straw and Guernsey cows are a luxury item. I worry that going the Guernsey route saves me 2 years at the outset, BUT down the road (assuming that this project isn't a complete failure) either scares people away or causes them to have to go back and replicate my idea with a HolsteinxJersey anyway.

That pathway probably pairs well with exploring some options for calving ease. One issue is that I am somewhat at the mercy of people selling semen: very few straws are advertised as "absolutely GARGANTUAN calves, buy our straws and put your vet's kids through college!" That makes it harder for a nobody like me (cheating me carries very little risk of reputational harm) to choose straws WITHIN a breed, since my aim is small calves out of well muscled bulls: I have to take the seller's word on how big the calves were. I think that most folks are honest, but dishonest folks survive by effectively pretending to be honest and I lack the contacts and experience to sort that out. There is also the issue that what I'm asking for is unique, and the honest answer from good folks is likely to be: "Man, that might work, but I'm honesty not sure. You're welcome to try, but I can't guarantee anything." To that end, Jan's suggestion about Limousin seems like a safer play to me, but if I had a good chance of getting Piedmontese semen that would produce small calves, the ceiling is higher on that play. No reward without risk, as they say.

Distilling all of that into a few questions:
1) is it reasonable to contact folks selling semen and ask about calf size (and expect a useful/honest answer)?

2) Is it possible to find HolsteinxJersey crosses from dairies that could still put out a calf? I can ask around on this one as well, but I figure I'll steal whatever knowledge y'all are willing to part with.

Thanks again!
It looks like you are trying to cover a lot of ground very fast, excited to get started. And that you have an ultimate goal in mind and I'm not sure I/we understand what your goal is. One of the foibles involved with language is misunderstandings until everyone is speaking the same language. Your form of technicalese isn't necessarily compatible with the technicalese used by people on the forum.

What I mean by that... is that to this point it sounds like you might be trying to develop a double muscled (or carrier) milk cow for the family farm that will produce heavily muscled beef type calves and still give lots of milk. But I'm not sure, mainly because you're covering a lot of ground and throwing all kinds of things out at one time which to me at least, has little relationship with each other.
 
It looks like you are trying to cover a lot of ground very fast, excited to get started. And that you have an ultimate goal in mind and I'm not sure I/we understand what your goal is. One of the foibles involved with language is misunderstandings until everyone is speaking the same language. Your form of technicalese isn't necessarily compatible with the technicalese used by people on the forum.

What I mean by that... is that to this point it sounds like you might be trying to develop a double muscled (or carrier) milk cow for the family farm that will produce heavily muscled beef type calves and still give lots of milk. But I'm not sure, mainly because you're covering a lot of ground and throwing all kinds of things out at one time which to me at least, has little relationship with each other.

That's a phenomenal summary. I think that the "language barrier" arises from two big sources:

1) I'm a rank amateur, and thus prone to misuse, simply not know, or substitute terms in a way that is very confusing to experts. I will keep trying to minimize that, and I truly appreciate everyone's patience.
2) The ultimate scope of the project is expansive, and when breaking that down into individual pieces which can be developed and tested, I generally have to appeal to different populations of experts. The end result is an attempt to avoid two opposite problems: giving people so little information about my ultimate goals that they're confused about what I'm trying to do or giving people so much information that they're confused about what I'm trying to do. I generally find that the latter works, best, but there is a learning curve where I have to explain (badly, due to #1) the unusual thing that I am after.

One other reason that I've covered a lot of ground is that I have found it to be very cheap to discuss and draw out ideas, but far more expensive to build them out and test them. Being expansive at the planning stage and then refining that based upon all of the lessons that folks have learned over the years is usually cheaper than "try it and find out." Eventually, you have to take that plunge, but eliminating the obvious pitfalls first saves time and money.
 
All AI sires have calving ease and weaning and yearling weights... bulls have EPD's with growth and such... You are looking for a calving ease DM bull that will put growth on the calves... I see nothing wrong with that... it is just that using these type bulls on a jersey cow is looking for trouble... MOST... not all.... are just not built to have calves of that "bulk"...

Jersey holstein cross cows are okay... but they seem to inherit the "bad traits" from each breed... Many are moody or difficult to deal with... NOT ALL... but every dairy farmer that I have milk tested over the years that used a jersey bull on heifers for the calving ease... and then kept the resulting heifers for milking... has culled them out sooner than later... One of the things that is common with them, is their udders tend to break down faster... center ligament support falls apart and they wind up with basketballs with teats sticking out sideways more than facing down.
I have had several and their temperment can be interesting... some are real B#@%h"s ... I prefer NOT to have them...
My favorite breed is Guernsey, but the sad thing is they have been so "refined" to try to get away from the old "rough and rawboned" type animal, that they have bred all the strength out of them... There is constant fertility problems with them... they make a good cross with a jersey... so using guernsey semen on a jersey is usually a plus... I have had very very few with bad dispositions.....

We have had a bunch of Red Poll's over the years... good dispositions, great mothers, milk good... they have bred the "dual purpose" out of them and gone more towards beef... often they had crummy udders. Most of that came from the "dairyness" of them... more milk than one calf could use many times...until the calf got a few weeks old....unfortunately, red just does not sell well here... and many times they will throw a red or reddish calf even with black sires.....
 
All AI sires have calving ease and weaning and yearling weights... bulls have EPD's with growth and such... You are looking for a calving ease DM bull that will put growth on the calves... I see nothing wrong with that... it is just that using these type bulls on a jersey cow is looking for trouble... MOST... not all.... are just not built to have calves of that "bulk"...

Jersey holstein cross cows are okay... but they seem to inherit the "bad traits" from each breed... Many are moody or difficult to deal with... NOT ALL... but every dairy farmer that I have milk tested over the years that used a jersey bull on heifers for the calving ease... and then kept the resulting heifers for milking... has culled them out sooner than later... One of the things that is common with them, is their udders tend to break down faster... center ligament support falls apart and they wind up with basketballs with teats sticking out sideways more than facing down.
I have had several and their temperment can be interesting... some are real B#@%h"s ... I prefer NOT to have them...
My favorite breed is Guernsey, but the sad thing is they have been so "refined" to try to get away from the old "rough and rawboned" type animal, that they have bred all the strength out of them... There is constant fertility problems with them... they make a good cross with a jersey... so using guernsey semen on a jersey is usually a plus... I have had very very few with bad dispositions.....

We have had a bunch of Red Poll's over the years... good dispositions, great mothers, milk good... they have bred the "dual purpose" out of them and gone more towards beef... often they had crummy udders. Most of that came from the "dairyness" of them... more milk than one calf could use many times...until the calf got a few weeks old....unfortunately, red just does not sell well here... and many times they will throw a red or reddish calf even with black sires.....

That helps quite a bit. A GuernseyxJersey would be a closer to what I eventually want vs a JerseyxHolstein (i.e. a small, high milkfat, high milk-solids, feed-efficient milk producer vs a larger, larger volume milk producer).

Would an animal composed of a the biggest Jersey that I can find, crossed with the biggest Guernsey I can find crossed with the biggest Piedmontese I can find be sufficiently large to THEN bear calves from a calving ease DM bull? My logic there is that crossing relatively larger cows at the outset has a high risk of costing me a pair of C-sections during the initial JerseyxGuernsey and JerseyxGuernsey x Piedmontese crosses, but that the resulting bloodline would be a larger framed animal with fewer calving problems down the line.....essentially paying small vet costs upfront to save a bunch down the road. When breeding subsequent generations, the use of Jersey vs Guernsey, in addition to intra-breed size differences, could provide a bit of control over the size of the next generation.

Can management help this issue in the form of crossing the resulting "Guernsey/Jersey/Piedmontese" heifer with Jersey semen for her first calf (her eventual replacement) and thereafter crossing her with DM semen to produce more valuable meat animals during subsequent freshening cycles? I don't know how much easier it is for a cow to birth subsequent calves vs her first, or if that's a sliding scale where the answer is "Yes it's easier, but only up to a point".

If it feels like I'm arguing with you, I apologize. My aim is to dial in on asking about the specific issues that you raise and get a better idea on potential solutions. I really appreciate the help.
 
That helps quite a bit. A GuernseyxJersey would be a closer to what I eventually want vs a JerseyxHolstein (i.e. a small, high milkfat, high milk-solids, feed-efficient milk producer vs a larger, larger volume milk producer).

Would an animal composed of a the biggest Jersey that I can find, crossed with the biggest Guernsey I can find crossed with the biggest Piedmontese I can find be sufficiently large to THEN bear calves from a calving ease DM bull? My logic there is that crossing relatively larger cows at the outset has a high risk of costing me a pair of C-sections during the initial JerseyxGuernsey and JerseyxGuernsey x Piedmontese crosses, but that the resulting bloodline would be a larger framed animal with fewer calving problems down the line.....essentially paying small vet costs upfront to save a bunch down the road. When breeding subsequent generations, the use of Jersey vs Guernsey, in addition to intra-breed size differences, could provide a bit of control over the size of the next generation.

Can management help this issue in the form of crossing the resulting "Guernsey/Jersey/Piedmontese" heifer with Jersey semen for her first calf (her eventual replacement) and thereafter crossing her with DM semen to produce more valuable meat animals during subsequent freshening cycles? I don't know how much easier it is for a cow to birth subsequent calves vs her first, or if that's a sliding scale where the answer is "Yes it's easier, but only up to a point".

If it feels like I'm arguing with you, I apologize. My aim is to dial in on asking about the specific issues that you raise and get a better idea on potential solutions. I really appreciate the help.
You seem to be wrapped up in "breeds" rather than capability. Individuals within any breed can vary a great deal. And size doesn't necessarily translate to easy births. There are double muscled cows that can birth double muscled calves and there are smooth muscled cows that can't birth a fifty pound calf. @lithuanian farmer is using all kinds of double muscled genetics and has some very impressive animals. Her calves average quite a bit more in weight than the average in the United States. But she's in a country/region that breeds for capable cows rather than easy calving bulls.

This isn't like going down to the car dealership and choosing a car off the lot.
 
You seem to be wrapped up in "breeds" rather than capability. Individuals within any breed can vary a great deal. And size doesn't necessarily translate to easy births. There are double muscled cows that can birth double muscled calves and there are smooth muscled cows that can't birth a fifty pound calf. @lithuanian farmer is using all kinds of double muscled genetics and has some very impressive animals. Her calves average quite a bit more in weight than the average in the United States. But she's in a country/region that breeds for capable cows rather than easy calving bulls.

This isn't like going down to the car dealership and choosing a car off the lot.

That makes quite a bit of sense. I'm going to extrapolate slightly from what you've said, and assume that my access as a miniscule operation in Texas to cows that have an easier time calving may be limited. As a novice searching for a trait that hasn't been pursued as aggressively as others, are there any easier ways to shop for traits? You're absolutely right that I am focused on breeds to a fault, chiefly because that's as deep as my vision currently penetrates into the topic of cattle traits. To analogize, I'm bow-fishing in the ocean, but I would be thrilled to learn how to use a fishing rod.
 
That makes quite a bit of sense. I'm going to extrapolate slightly from what you've said, and assume that my access as a miniscule operation in Texas to cows that have an easier time calving may be limited. As a novice searching for a trait that hasn't been pursued as aggressively as others, are there any easier ways to shop for traits? You're absolutely right that I am focused on breeds to a fault, chiefly because that's as deep as my vision currently penetrates into the topic of cattle traits. To analogize, I'm bow-fishing in the ocean, but I would be thrilled to learn how to use a fishing rod.
I'd like to know about your property. Former ranch or cropland? What's growing on it now? Fences and number of acres in each pasture? Cross fenced and number of paddocks? Water? Irrigation? Growing any hay? House(s) and outbuildings?

I think you said 133 acres? That's pretty large for a "hobby farm" where I come from but maybe in Texas it's tiny.
 

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