Sits Angus and $M

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Well, I have the dams, granddams, and great-granddams (some still in production) of the bull calves I show.
I have one cow family (my #9 or #29 - had so many I had to reduce it to #9) that goes back to the 70's. So, I have generations behind most all my cows in my herd. It is rare that I get a "surprise" calf. Yes, the bull obviously will change her offspring if I use a super moderate or a super growth bull - but, pretty much my calves are stamped with the same phenotype - the type I like.
I occasionally purposely work to add a new cow family into my herd, by purchasing a "tried and true" mature cow - or embryos out of a proven dam (not just the latest new shining star).
 
That's the thing, it's become more about marketing and hype than about actually breeding cattle.
Years ago you when you needed a bull, be it for a purebred or commercial herd , you went and looked bulls over and usually didn't go far too far to look. Actual visual appraisal along with any information the breeder told was what you went by. It was in the breeders interest to be as honest as possible. If they weren't then the reputation got around.
Now you go to most registered farms and they all have a similar assortment of calves by the hot bulls. All they know to tell you is the same hype that the semen companies promoted.
The influential registered programs have always figured out to stay a step or two ahead of their customers and less influential competitors.
EPD's are just another way to make money and take focus off of any responsibilities that a breeder might have towards supplying quality breeding stock.
AI breeding in my opinion can be a good way to improve stock and get new genetics into a herd. Like everything else people have seen a way to make money and it's gotten far more credit and respect than it deserves.
The semen companies are in my opinion now just one more entity making money off the cattle producers.
I firmly believe that AI for most commercial herds is a waste of time and money.
Selecting a bull requires some evaluation, analysis and a decision. Whether a pasture bull or an AI bull. Phenotype/appearance, genetics, cow family history, reputation of the breeder/owner, etc come into play. Most people buy a yearling bull. A bull that has never bred a cow. If you had the choice of a 4 year old bull, you could probably see his calves, get information on birth weights, calving ease, growth, disposition, etc. That seems like a big advantage to me with a lot less risk than a yearling bull. And you could probably use the bull for as many years as you would use a yearling bull. Yet, I think most people would buy a yearling bull instead. Generally due to availability and maybe price and mindset.
If you are AI breeding, you can use a bull that has sired hundreds or thousands of calves with lots of data. Risk there is whether the bull sires calves that fit your conditions and management. But there is information to help you evaluate that as well. I think a person is more likely to find a proven AI sire that will make bigger improvements in his cattle than he is likely to get from a yearling bull. Unless that person already has a mighty fine herd of cattle. But AI does require extra effort and commitment.
AI or natural service, a person needs to first decide what qualities they want in a bull. That may be the hard work. Don't look for a bull that does it all - you will perhaps find that it does not end up that way and will probably spend too much money and drive too many miles.
 
It seems people have many different ideas about what is moderate, I have my opinions, but please tell me your definition of moderate.
I'll stick my neck out. Moderate to me is not extremely good or bad - different for every situation. If you have really big or really small cows, you should have a reason for that choice.

I have no interest in races or extreme anything or bringing in new bulls regularly. Rarely will they bring more good than bad.

I have pretty much drank the kool-aid on mob breeding - using all bulls that come from good mothers and just getting rid of the unacceptable bulls from that group. This dilutes the extremely "good" and eliminates the extremely bad ones.
 
Selecting a bull requires some evaluation, analysis and a decision. Whether a pasture bull or an AI bull. Phenotype/appearance, genetics, cow family history, reputation of the breeder/owner, etc come into play. Most people buy a yearling bull. A bull that has never bred a cow. If you had the choice of a 4 year old bull, you could probably see his calves, get information on birth weights, calving ease, growth, disposition, etc. That seems like a big advantage to me with a lot less risk than a yearling bull. And you could probably use the bull for as many years as you would use a yearling bull. Yet, I think most people would buy a yearling bull instead. Generally due to availability and maybe price and mindset.
If you are AI breeding, you can use a bull that has sired hundreds or thousands of calves with lots of data. Risk there is whether the bull sires calves that fit your conditions and management. But there is information to help you evaluate that as well. I think a person is more likely to find a proven AI sire that will make bigger improvements in his cattle than he is likely to get from a yearling bull. Unless that person already has a mighty fine herd of cattle. But AI does require extra effort and commitment.
AI or natural service, a person needs to first decide what qualities they want in a bull. That may be the hard work. Don't look for a bull that does it all - you will perhaps find that it does not end up that way and will probably spend too much money and drive too many miles.
I'm agreement with all you've stated, though it probably varies from place to place what is available. Most all bulls are sold as yearlings around here. Most bulls are not kept long and any older bulls are usually figured to be at the point where they are getting out. Most sizable bulls are just pounded out. Problem that myself and others have had is that a lot of these mainstream bred bulls just don't hold up past a couple breeding seasons. I just gave up not really blaming the farms the bulls came from as they are just doing what they think is best by multiplying the genetics of other larger nationally known prefixes.
I've been concentrating on what I've found that does work here and trying build on that.
 
As a commercial breeder it has been frustrating finding the type and frame size of cattle we need. And when we find a bull that has what we desire and has good feet and legs as a yearling then he sires bad feet and legs. Some issues don't show up for 1-2 years. We have retained some bulls we raised. Also AIing our replacements and some top cows. We are hoping we can raise sires by AIing and using cows we know that will correct the issues we are having. I know AI is just one tool that is available. I will know more in 2-3 years how it works, We felt that we needed to try something different.
 

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