"SINGING" FROM THE SAME BEEF PAGE!

Help Support CattleToday:

Status
Not open for further replies.

DOC HARRIS

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 26, 2005
Messages
3,256
Reaction score
3
Location
Ft. Collins, CO
I, along with Caustic Burno, have been perusing this subject of "Which is Best" and Why for several weeks, and I believe we need to start "Singing From The Same Page" and begin to understand the same notes and words of the song.

GLOSSARY:

1 - PUREBRED - Cattle (or any animal species) which are considered PURE or straight in their Genetic background for six (6) generations or, preferably, more.
2 - PEDIGREE - A recorded known line of descent - a list of ancestors.
3 - REGISTERED - Animals (Cattle) which are Purebred (see above) and whose pedigrees (see above) are recorded in an official Breed Registry Book ( and usually administered by a Breed Association).
4- REGISTERED BREEDER - A cattle-raiser who breeds and raises for profit (hopefully!) cattle of a specific and particular Breed and whose seedstock, male and female, are Purebred animals - WITHIN THAT BREED!
5- CROSS-BRED - Animals who are the result of breeding a PUREBRED male or female of one breed to a PUREBRED member of the opposite sex, male or female, of another breed.
6 - BEEF BREED - A BREED of cattle whose primary purpose or reason for existence is to produce MEAT for human consumption.
7 - MILK BREED - A BREED of cattle whose primary purpose for reason for existence is to produce MILK products for human consumption.
8 - HETEROSIS - A phenomenon resulting from hybridization (cross breeding - see above) in which the resulting offspring display more desirable characteristics than the parents, as exemplified by, case in point, authentic EPD's (Expected Progeny Differences) utilized in the Beef Industry and frequently referred to as "Hybrid Vigor, Strength or Vitality.

As with many discussions or debates, if you will, "Semantics" rears its head and becomes a problem of misunderstanding terminology. The current prevailing opinion of most knowledgable and experienced beef breeders and scholars is that CROSSBREEDING, using two or more PURE or HYBRIDIZED BREEDS (important component here), over time, results in a more desirable and profitable Beef Product for the producer.

I consider several of the contributors to the Beef Board correct in their assessments and conclusions of "Which is Best", however it depends entirely upon which characteristics one is considering - calving ease, weaning weight, mothering abilitie(s), yearling weight, marbling, rib-eye area, % of retail product, keeping the offspring for herd replacements, or terminal. After all when it is ALL said and done - - -"IT'S WHAT'S FOR DINNER"!

I welcome your comments. DOC HARRIS [/b]
 
Doc,
you get no argument from me about the...." same page". An excellent reminder.

Should #5 be... breed(typo?) (guess it could be either one!)
 
DOC HARRIS":2arkx1vk said:
I consider several of the contributors to the Beef Board correct in their assessments and conclusions of "Which is Best", however it depends entirely upon which characteristics one is considering - calving ease, weaning weight, mothering abilitie(s), yearling weight, marbling, rib-eye area, % of retail product, keeping the offspring for herd replacements, or terminal. After all when it is ALL said and done - - -"IT'S WHAT'S FOR DINNER"!

I welcome your comments. DOC HARRIS [/b]


IMO...You need fertility 1st without that nothing else maters.
 
frenchie":223c97lm said:
DOC HARRIS":223c97lm said:
I consider several of the contributors to the Beef Board correct in their assessments and conclusions of "Which is Best", however it depends entirely upon which characteristics one is considering - calving ease, weaning weight, mothering abilitie(s), yearling weight, marbling, rib-eye area, % of retail product, keeping the offspring for herd replacements, or terminal. After all when it is ALL said and done - - -"IT'S WHAT'S FOR DINNER"!

I welcome your comments. DOC HARRIS [/b]


IMO...You need fertility 1st without that nothing else maters.

You are right frenchie, a cow has to produce a calf every 12 months or she is not worth keeping. If everyone would cull for fertility they would see more profit. (or not as much loss :lol: )
 
frenchie":wpsh5hc0 said:
DOC HARRIS":wpsh5hc0 said:
I consider several of the contributors to the Beef Board correct in their assessments and conclusions of "Which is Best", however it depends entirely upon which characteristics one is considering - calving ease, weaning weight, mothering abilitie(s), yearling weight, marbling, rib-eye area, % of retail product, keeping the offspring for herd replacements, or terminal. After all when it is ALL said and done - - -"IT'S WHAT'S FOR DINNER"!

I welcome your comments. DOC HARRIS [/b]


IMO...You need fertility 1st without that nothing else maters.
Frenchie - You'll get no argument from me on that item! I didn't include many factors of importance in this tome, and "Fertility" is # 1 along with a lot of other #1's!
 
preston39":1bcm64jr said:
Doc,
you get no argument from me about the...." same page". An excellent reminder.

Should #5 be... breed(typo?) (guess it could be either one!)
Preston - No, it wasn't a typo. Crossbreed and cross-bred are two different definitions.
 
frenchie":q3mxt4ge said:
DOC HARRIS":q3mxt4ge said:
I consider several of the contributors to the Beef Board correct in their assessments and conclusions of "Which is Best", however it depends entirely upon which characteristics one is considering - calving ease, weaning weight, mothering abilitie(s), yearling weight, marbling, rib-eye area, % of retail product, keeping the offspring for herd replacements, or terminal. After all when it is ALL said and done - - -"IT'S WHAT'S FOR DINNER"!

I welcome your comments. DOC HARRIS [/b]


IMO...You need fertility 1st without that nothing else maters.
See answer to Frenchie. Bottom line PROFIT is another, among about a dozen or so others. Time and space constraints dictated my not doing a textbook! - DOC
 
Doc said:
"1 - PUREBRED - Cattle (or any animal species) which are considered PURE or straight in their Genetic background for six (6) generations or, preferably, more."

That's a tough one. You didn't mention "fullblood". Purebred or fullbood (I never can remember which is which) is an animal bred up from another breed/cross to be registered with a breed association. Personally, I'll use the term "registered" to indicate an animal that meets the breed association's criteria for...registration. Otherwise your terms are very clear.
 
Frankie":3c31lwns said:
Doc said:
"1 - PUREBRED - Cattle (or any animal species) which are considered PURE or straight in their Genetic background for six (6) generations or, preferably, more."

That's a tough one. You didn't mention "fullblood". Purebred or fullbood (I never can remember which is which) is an animal bred up from another breed/cross to be registered with a breed association. Personally, I'll use the term "registered" to indicate an animal that meets the breed association's criteria for...registration. Otherwise your terms are very clear.
Frankie - You are correct in your use of the term "Registered". " Full blood" came into use many years ago and, actually, should be obsolete now. It was used to refer to "Pure bred animals or plants" when it was thought that 'blood' (instead of Genes) was the medium of heredity. I am sure you are familiar with some people who refer to Pure bred cattle as "Thoroughbreds" when we all know that that is a BREED of a horse species. But the correct intent is there. "Pure Bred" and "Full Blood" are terms that are interchangeable.
 
Fullblood - pure in blood for as many generations as are recorded a the animal's respective herd book.

Purebred - bred up to a high percentage meeting the specific requirements of the breed association.

Registered animal - any animal recorded by the association. May include fullbloods, purebreds, percentage or hybrids.

Registered breeder - member of national breed association and records and registers the majority of his cattle with the association.
 
DOC HARRIS:":2o6ubxk7 said:
Full blood came into use many years ago and, actually, should be obsolete now. It was used to refer to "Pure bred animals or plants" when it was thought that 'blood' (instead of Genes) was the medium of heredity. I am sure you are familiar with some people who refer to Pure bred cattle as "Thoroughbreds" when we all know that that is a BREED of a horse species. But the correct intent is there. "Pure Bred" and "Full Blood" are terms that are interchangeable.

Have I missed something? Why sould the term "fullblood" be obsolete? And I really have to disagree about the two terms being interchangeable. Some breeds still allow "breeding up" and use these terms to identify those cattle that have other breeds in their pedigree or no other breeds in their pedigree. No, I've never heard anyone refer to purebred cattle as "thoroughbreds." But then I don't get out a lot....
 
Frankie":nekitwd2 said:
Doc said:
"1 - PUREBRED - Cattle (or any animal species) which are considered PURE or straight in their Genetic background for six (6) generations or, preferably, more."

That's a tough one. You didn't mention "fullblood". Purebred or fullbood (I never can remember which is which) is an animal bred up from another breed/cross to be registered with a breed association. Personally, I'll use the term "registered" to indicate an animal that meets the breed association's criteria for...registration. Otherwise your terms are very clear.

Frankie I am just a dumb old commercial cattleman I had always thought it had to be seven generations.
 
Caustic Burno":2wis5wv0 said:
Frankie":2wis5wv0 said:
Doc said:
"1 - PUREBRED - Cattle (or any animal species) which are considered PURE or straight in their Genetic background for six (6) generations or, preferably, more."

That's a tough one. You didn't mention "fullblood". Purebred or fullbood (I never can remember which is which) is an animal bred up from another breed/cross to be registered with a breed association. Personally, I'll use the term "registered" to indicate an animal that meets the breed association's criteria for...registration. Otherwise your terms are very clear.

Frankie I am just a dumb old commercial cattleman I had always thought it had to be seven generations.

Since I've never raised any registered cattle other than Angus, I don't have a clue how many generations it takes for a breed association to call an animal "fullblood" or "purebred." That's Doc's comment about 6 generations. I was under the impression that any animal registered as "Fullblood" was decended from only other fullblood animals. But I guess a breed association can call their cattle anything they want. Maybe someone one who raises a breed that allows breeding up will chime in and tell us if both those terms are still being used....
 
Frankie":hkvw85o9 said:
Caustic Burno":hkvw85o9 said:
Frankie":hkvw85o9 said:
Doc said:
"1 - PUREBRED - Cattle (or any animal species) which are considered PURE or straight in their Genetic background for six (6) generations or, preferably, more."

That's a tough one. You didn't mention "fullblood". Purebred or fullbood (I never can remember which is which) is an animal bred up from another breed/cross to be registered with a breed association. Personally, I'll use the term "registered" to indicate an animal that meets the breed association's criteria for...registration. Otherwise your terms are very clear.

Frankie I am just a dumb old commercial cattleman I had always thought it had to be seven generations.

Since I've never raised any registered cattle other than Angus, I don't have a clue how many generations it takes for a breed association to call an animal "fullblood" or "purebred." That's Doc's comment about 6 generations. I was under the impression that any animal registered as "Fullblood" was decended from only other fullblood animals. But I guess a breed association can call their cattle anything they want. Maybe someone one who raises a breed that allows breeding up will chime in and tell us if both those terms are still being used....

NALF does

"Fullblood and Purebred

Currently the only classifications NALF has are:
1. Percentage - bulls less than 93% and females less that 87%. The exact percentage is printed on the certificate.
2. Purebred (87%) - this is the qualified purebred status for females only. The percentage appears on the certificate if the female is 87% or greater but less than 93%.
3. Purebred - appears on all animals that are 93% or greater Limousin. In calculating the percentage of Limousin of the offspring, all cattle in this category are considered to be 100% Limousin. The percentage does not appear on the papers.
4. Fullblood- As of May 1, 1993, Fullblood appears on all cattle that trace back to full French ancestry and have not been upgraded from domestic stock."

Left this out the first time

"The breed codes on pedigrees indicate the ancestry of the animal. As an example, a purebred bull with the breed codes LLLLLLL* indicates the bull does trace back to a domestic foundation animal. An animal with fullblood ancestry always carries a breed code of LLLLLLLL."
 
Frankie":30d7i3qk said:
DOC HARRIS:":30d7i3qk said:
Full blood came into use many years ago and, actually, should be obsolete now. It was used to refer to "Pure bred animals or plants" when it was thought that 'blood' (instead of Genes) was the medium of heredity. I am sure you are familiar with some people who refer to Pure bred cattle as "Thoroughbreds" when we all know that that is a BREED of a horse species. But the correct intent is there. "Pure Bred" and "Full Blood" are terms that are interchangeable.

Have I missed something? Why sould the term "fullblood" be obsolete? And I really have to disagree about the two terms being interchangeable. Some breeds still allow "breeding up" and use these terms to identify those cattle that have other breeds in their pedigree or no other breeds in their pedigree. No, I've never heard anyone refer to purebred cattle as "thoroughbreds." But then I don't get out a lot....
Frankie - if you wish to use the term 'fullblood' - by all means do it. Some sources and areas say one thing - some say another. Use what you wish. As far as using the term "thoroughbred' to mean purebred - - you can bet the farm that word is used - BIG TIME. You have just missed the geographical parts of the country who use that word as a colloquialism.

If you will refer to my original post - in the paragraph immediately following the eight items of the GLOSSARY, you will observe that I referred to the word "Semantics". In almost any discussion between two or more people, the problem of semantics interjects itself into logic and reason and - - suddenly the subject ricochets - - and the DEBATE becomes a WAR! N-a-a-a-a-a, if you want to use the word fullblood to mean Purebred, I'll know what you mean. And isn't that what's important here? That we all understand what each person means? I certainly don't want us to get so degraded and misconstrued that we take on the aura of Politicians!! God Forbid That! Please!
 
Caustic Burno":20m98uqy said:
Frankie":20m98uqy said:
Doc said:
"1 - PUREBRED - Cattle (or any animal species) which are considered PURE or straight in their Genetic background for six (6) generations or, preferably, more."

That's a tough one. You didn't mention "fullblood". Purebred or fullbood (I never can remember which is which) is an animal bred up from another breed/cross to be registered with a breed association. Personally, I'll use the term "registered" to indicate an animal that meets the breed association's criteria for...registration. Otherwise your terms are very clear.

Frankie I am just a dumb old commercial cattleman I had always thought it had to be seven generations.
- - - -maybe eight - -or, Gosh - - -even nine wouldn't be bad!
 
DOC HARRIS":1kzvwd33 said:
if you want to use the word fullblood to mean Purebred, I'll know what you mean. And isn't that what's important here? That we all understand what each person means?

YOU might know what Frankie means but, some of the others may not. Especially since those words are NOT the same by defination. Which was explained in a previous post. We don't need any unnecessary confusion, isn't that what you just said?
 
certherfbeef":cfhdeocu said:
DOC HARRIS":cfhdeocu said:
if you want to use the word fullblood to mean Purebred, I'll know what you mean. And isn't that what's important here? That we all understand what each person means?

YOU might know what Frankie means but, some of the others may not. Especially since those words are NOT the same by defination. Which was explained in a previous post. We don't need any unnecessary confusion, isn't that what you just said?
You are right! There is that old word "semantics" again!-- - -You know - - -the practice of Breeding profitable Beef Cattle is tough enough without confusing the issue with confusing rhetoric. My Professor in Ag School at Missouri University years ago said: Take a "Purebred" bull (any breed) and mate him to a 'scrub' cow (any 'which' breed) and breed the resulting female to a purebred bull (same breed as the original bull) and continue that process for FIVE (5) generations, and the fifth generation result will be 9998.438% purebred. That is pretty darned close to being- - - - -pretty darned good! Call it whatever you want to - - -Purebred, Fullblood, Straight bred, - - -heck --even call it thoroughbred if you want to! It's wrong - but it would still be 9998.438% usable in a Cross Breeding program to increase FERTILITY, VIGOR and PROFIT! How about that?!
 
Wewild":9clboxw1 said:
Frankie":9clboxw1 said:
Caustic Burno":9clboxw1 said:
Frankie":9clboxw1 said:
Doc said:
"1 - PUREBRED - Cattle (or any animal species) which are considered PURE or straight in their Genetic background for six (6) generations or, preferably, more."

That's a tough one. You didn't mention "fullblood". Purebred or fullbood (I never can remember which is which) is an animal bred up from another breed/cross to be registered with a breed association. Personally, I'll use the term "registered" to indicate an animal that meets the breed association's criteria for...registration. Otherwise your terms are very clear.

Frankie I am just a dumb old commercial cattleman I had always thought it had to be seven generations.

Since I've never raised any registered cattle other than Angus, I don't have a clue how many generations it takes for a breed association to call an animal "fullblood" or "purebred." That's Doc's comment about 6 generations. I was under the impression that any animal registered as "Fullblood" was decended from only other fullblood animals. But I guess a breed association can call their cattle anything they want. Maybe someone one who raises a breed that allows breeding up will chime in and tell us if both those terms are still being used....

NALF does

"Fullblood and Purebred

Currently the only classifications NALF has are:
1. Percentage - bulls less than 93% and females less that 87%. The exact percentage is printed on the certificate.
2. Purebred (87%) - this is the qualified purebred status for females only. The percentage appears on the certificate if the female is 87% or greater but less than 93%.
3. Purebred - appears on all animals that are 93% or greater Limousin. In calculating the percentage of Limousin of the offspring, all cattle in this category are considered to be 100% Limousin. The percentage does not appear on the papers.
4. Fullblood- As of May 1, 1993, Fullblood appears on all cattle that trace back to full French ancestry and have not been upgraded from domestic stock."

Left this out the first time

"The breed codes on pedigrees indicate the ancestry of the animal. As an example, a purebred bull with the breed codes LLLLLLL* indicates the bull does trace back to a domestic foundation animal. An animal with fullblood ancestry always carries a breed code of LLLLLLLL."
WELLLLLLLL! That certainly answers that argument - - - -doesn't it?
 
I haven't read the boards in a while, but I clicked on this thread and quickly realized that, DOC HARRIS, although you are probably a knowledgeable (you'll note the proper spelling of knowledgeable) cattleman, but you are a pain in the ass. I have not, and will not, make a habit of picking contributor's posts apart. However, with the arrogant tone of your post here, and in the followup posts, you give the impression that you are above reproach, and therefore I'm sure that you can tolerate a bit of constructive criticism. After all, you did welcome comments. ;-)
DOC HARRIS":2bis0v7p said:
I, along with Caustic Burno,
When did you and Caustic Burno get in cahoots? Is CB aware of this alliance? It's interesting to me that he hasn't commented much on this thread. Maybe you two have shared Private Messages that we are unaware of, however your posting styles seem much too different for me to believe that you two have been collaborating to straighten out SEMANTICS for all of us run-of-the-mill cattlemen on these boards. But stranger things have happened?! :roll: .
DOC HARRIS":2bis0v7p said:
have been perusing this subject of "Which is Best" and Why for several weeks, and I believe we need to start "Singing From The Same Page" and begin to understand the same notes and words of the song.

GLOSSARY:

1 - PUREBRED - Cattle (or any animal species) which are considered PURE or straight in their Genetic background for six (6) generations or, preferably, more.
2 - PEDIGREE - A recorded known line of descent - a list of ancestors.
3 - REGISTERED - Animals (Cattle) which are Purebred
Could also be "fullblood" or "percentage" depending on the breed/association policies ("rules" to us common folk).
DOC HARRIS":2bis0v7p said:
(see above) and whose pedigrees (see above) are recorded in an official Breed Registry Book ( and usually administered by a Breed Association).
4- REGISTERED BREEDER - A cattle-raiser who breeds and raises for profit (hopefully!) cattle of a specific and particular Breed and whose seedstock, male and female, are Purebred animals - WITHIN THAT BREED!
5- CROSS-BRED - Animals who
As much as we love them, cattle are not humans, so this "who" should be "which".
DOC HARRIS":2bis0v7p said:
are the result of breeding a PUREBRED male or female of one breed to a PUREBRED member of the opposite sex, male or female, of another breed.
I think that most cattleman on these boards would consider a "CROSS-BRED" (by the way, the hyphen is not necessary) cow/bull/steer, any cow/bull/steer that is not fullblood, purebred, and/or registered. While I agree that the offspring of a PUREBRED cow and PUREBRED bull, of different breeds, is indeed crossbred, I would also contend that any bovine of mixed [including hybridized(see below)] or indeterminant ancestry is "crossbred".
DOC HARRIS":2bis0v7p said:
6 - BEEF BREED - A BREED of cattle whose primary purpose or reason for existence is to produce MEAT for human consumption.
7 - MILK BREED - A BREED of cattle whose primary purpose for reason for existence is to produce MILK products for human consumption.
Did you mean "or reason for existence"?
DOC HARRIS":2bis0v7p said:
8 - HETEROSIS - A phenomenon resulting from hybridization (cross breeding - see above)
The "cross breeding" that you reference parenthetically is, in fact, not apparent, "above" to be referenced. Despite the fact that I "saw above", I could not locate another reference to "cross breeding". I did find"CROSS-BRED" above. Interestingly, didn't you argue the point to Preston that, in your opinion, crossbreeding and cross-bred are not the same, i.e. "they're two different definitions".
DOC HARRIS":2bis0v7p said:
in which the resulting offspring display more desirable characteristics than the parents, as exemplified by, case in point, authentic EPD's (Expected Progeny Differences) utilized in the Beef Industry and frequently referred to as "Hybrid Vigor, Strength or Vitality.

As with many discussions or debates, if you will, "Semantics" rears its head and becomes a problem of misunderstanding terminology. The current prevailing opinion of most knowledgable
You'll now remember the comment on the proper spelling of knowledgeable.
DOC HARRIS":2bis0v7p said:
and experienced beef breeders and scholars is that CROSSBREEDING, using two or more PURE or HYBRIDIZED BREEDS (important component here),
You now contradict yourself (Glossary topic #5), and thereby help make one of my previous points. Thanks.
DOC HARRIS":2bis0v7p said:
over time, results in a more desirable and profitable Beef Product for the producer.

I consider several of the contributors to the Beef Board correct in their assessments and conclusions of "Which is Best", however it depends entirely upon which characteristics one is considering - calving ease, weaning weight, mothering abilitie(s), yearling weight, marbling, rib-eye area, % of retail product, keeping the offspring for herd replacements, or terminal. After all when it is ALL said and done - - -"IT'S WHAT'S FOR DINNER"!

I welcome your comments. DOC HARRIS [/b]
Thanks. In another, later post, you threatened us with a textbook. If that is in your plans, please plan to hire an exceptional editor.

Regarding the "Fullblood vs. Purebred" issue: the term "fullblood" is not obsolete. The terms are not interchangeable. 2centsworth and Wewild have cleared this up. Let it go. You were wrong and Frankie was right. Admit it.

I'm not sure exactly when in history it was thought that "blood was the medium of heredity" when it came to plants, but I'm sure that you can reference that for us.

I've never heard of anything but a certain breed of horse referred to as Thoroughbred. There may be a few people/geographical areas around the country that use this term in reference to cattle, but it is not "commonplace". Thoroughbred is certainly not used to refer to cattle....how did you refer to it.....oh yes....."BIGTIME".

Once again, for the most part, I generally have not, and will not critically review posts, but thank you to DOC HARRIS for welcoming comments.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top