Simmental breeders

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kenny thomas

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Simmental breeders and users. I am looking at a young bull for light use this year and heavy use next year.
I have cross cows and will not be keeping heifers from him. Below are his numbers.

CE-12.3
BW-0.4
WW-35.2
YW-62.8
MCE-6.6
Milk-2.6 I may have written this one wrong. seems low.
MWW-20.2
STAY-21.3
CWT-0.4
YG-.12
MRB-.32
BF-.03
REA-.05
API-127
TI-69

WW was 759
Frame is about 6.5 (Just how I like it)
He is 15 months old, good muscle, good disposition.
He is AI, out of In Dew Time.
All shots, wormed, and magnet put in his stomach.
Price is $1600.00

What are your thoughts? Again, he would be used on common cross cows with no heifers kept.
 

Jeanne - Simme Valley

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He has excellent EPD's. He should be easy calving with lots of growth. And, why wouldn't you keep heifers by him? MCE is 6.6 - that's great! You may change your mind :banana:
In Dew Time is good pedigree. Good price. Looks like you found a good one on paper. Any pictures??
 

redcowsrule33

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twistedxranch":2sskwgqr said:
The minus 12.3 ced scares me though. If it was +12 I would say go for it. With a milk epd in the minus I would not keep heifers out of him either. I think he will work good as a terminal cross. What was his birthweight and yearling weight out of curiosity? Even if the milk was +2.6 that seems awfully low.

Umm, I think those are all dashes not negative signs... :roll:

As a terminal sire I think he would work especially if you want calving ease on a mixed group. The milk EPD is low but I if you aren't keeping them, so what. You could find a bit better numbers for growth but you'd be sacrificing CE in most cases. Just make sure the phenotype is there and look at the dam's progeny record and background to see how well those numbers are likely to hold up.
 
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kenny thomas

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Sorry twistedxranch, all the numbers are +. I forgot to ask the actual birthweight (you are right that is one of the most important questions). I have bought so many from this farm I don't even worry about it although I should. I will post it when I get it. Also don't know yearling wt but he has not been pushed and he is 1260 at 15 months.
Also he is homozygous black and polled.
Thanks for the comments and I will post a picture when I go back to get him on May 2. Pretty much decided he is the one I want but welcome any comments.
 

Aero

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Jeanne - Simme Valley":3hjj6z3w said:
He has excellent EPD's. He should be easy calving with lots of growth. And, why wouldn't you keep heifers by him? MCE is 6.6 - that's great! You may change your mind :banana:
In Dew Time is good pedigree. Good price. Looks like you found a good one on paper. Any pictures??

i just dont get how it can be good that his MCE is half of his CE. it doesnt sound sustainable. why is it the SM always have a lot lower MCE that CE?
 

Jeanne - Simme Valley

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Aero":1onksrwq said:
Jeanne - Simme Valley":1onksrwq said:
He has excellent EPD's. He should be easy calving with lots of growth. And, why wouldn't you keep heifers by him? MCE is 6.6 - that's great! You may change your mind :banana:
In Dew Time is good pedigree. Good price. Looks like you found a good one on paper. Any pictures??

i just dont get how it can be good that his MCE is half of his CE. it doesnt sound sustainable. why is it the SM always have a lot lower MCE that CE?
I deffinately don't know the legistics behind the numbers - way too complicated for this gal - but, breed average is +6.5 CE (direct) and +2.3 MCE.
In Dew Time (sire of this bull) has a CE of +18.1 (top 1% for the breed) -0.8 BW (top 15% for the breed) and a +8.2 MCE (top 2%) - so, unless this bull is a total genetic oddball to his sire or his dam is absolutely horrible in numbers - he should run pretty true to his numbers if not better.
Being in the top 1-2% for the breed in BOTH CE & MCE is absolutely GREAT. They are antaganistic traits. That is a real plus for this bull.
And yes, this bull is below breed average for milk - but who cares? A Simmental influenced dam "normally" will have plenty of milk, unless you might get into some real negative milk numbers.
 

cowman30

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Jeanne - Simme Valley":3nxd11bj said:
Aero":3nxd11bj said:
Jeanne - Simme Valley":3nxd11bj said:
He has excellent EPD's. He should be easy calving with lots of growth. And, why wouldn't you keep heifers by him? MCE is 6.6 - that's great! You may change your mind :banana:
In Dew Time is good pedigree. Good price. Looks like you found a good one on paper. Any pictures??

i just dont get how it can be good that his MCE is half of his CE. it doesnt sound sustainable. why is it the SM always have a lot lower MCE that CE?
I deffinately don't know the legistics behind the numbers - way too complicated for this gal - but, breed average is +6.5 CE (direct) and +2.3 MCE.
In Dew Time (sire of this bull) has a CE of +18.1 (top 1% for the breed) -0.8 BW (top 15% for the breed) and a +8.2 MCE (top 2%) - so, unless this bull is a total genetic oddball to his sire or his dam is absolutely horrible in numbers - he should run pretty true to his numbers if not better.
Being in the top 1-2% for the breed in BOTH CE & MCE is absolutely GREAT. They are antaganistic traits. That is a real plus for this bull.
And yes, this bull is below breed average for milk - but who cares? A Simmental influenced dam "normally" will have plenty of milk, unless you might get into some real negative milk numbers.


A cow needs milk and lots of it to wean those 700 pound + calves everyone has now adays and below average wont cut the mustard.
 
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kenny thomas

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cowman30, yes the 700lb+ is what I am after. That is the reason for the cross cows with the Simmy bulls. Do not get all of them that big but quite a few. Some over 800.
First year is a while that it looks like we will have enough rain and have good grass. Hope for a lot of 700 pounders.
 

cowman30

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kenny thomas":2wthudlz said:
cowman30, yes the 700lb+ is what I am after. That is the reason for the cross cows with the Simmy bulls. Do not get all of them that big but quite a few. Some over 800.
First year is a while that it looks like we will have enough rain and have good grass. Hope for a lot of 700 pounders.


Good luck it sounds like you are on the right track. With that bulls weaning weight if the dams are heacy milkers you should achieve your goal.
 

edrsimms

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kenny thomas":iywksl8r said:
Simmental breeders and users. I am looking at a young bull for light use this year and heavy use next year.
I have cross cows and will not be keeping heifers from him. Below are his numbers.

CE-12.3
BW-0.4
WW-35.2
YW-62.8
MCE-6.6
Milk-2.6 I may have written this one wrong. seems low.
MWW-20.2
STAY-21.3
CWT-0.4
YG-.12
MRB-.32
BF-.03
REA-.05
API-127
TI-69

WW was 759
Frame is about 6.5 (Just how I like it)
He is 15 months old, good muscle, good disposition.
He is AI, out of In Dew Time.
All shots, wormed, and magnet put in his stomach.
Price is $1600.00

What are your thoughts? Again, he would be used on common cross cows with no heifers kept.

I think this bull is ok for a terminal sire -- like you I wouldn't keep heifers off of him because he lacks some important maternal traits like MWW (directly related to WW and MM) and MM. For him to have a 2.6 MM EPD it means that both his sire and dam are weak in the Maternal trait categories. When looking at In Dew Time his WW, YW, MM and MWW are all weak. The YW bothers me a bit because this represents feed efficiency and low growth.A 62 is a little better than average-- so what. As far as his other traits go in the carcass areas-- he is somewhat weak to just average, which wont impress the feeder buyer much. In Dew Time (IDT) is not very strong in his carcass merit either and the apple doesnt fall too far from the tree. I think you could do better for $1600. Also when purchasing a PB Simm as a Terminal SIre you should be concentrating more on the (TI) In Dew Time, has very low accuracies for most of the traits for being a 2003 model. This tells me what I expect is that he hasn't been used that much as an AI sire and he is basically and umproved entity. I think you would be taking a chance on using any Son of In Dew Time for the same reasons. I personally have never considered using IDT because we don't normally keep a calf as a potential herd sire with a TI as low as 69.. Those calves end up castrated during Spring work.
Another thing I dont like about this bull is his Frame Score-- 6.5 it too much frame and you will take a hit on your feeders come sale time, which is taking money out of your pocket. You have to get out of the rut of these larger Frame scores and concentrate more on quality pounds of beef produced rather than quantity pounds. I realize you are being paid (by the pound) but a buyer trying to maximize his return on investment will not pay you top $ for frame score 6.5 calves. He knows that those calves will take longer to finish and a quick turn around on those larger calves will be non-existant-- so he/she will pay you less money. Frame score 5.8 to 6.0 calves will be bringing top money on sale day as those calves will exit the feed yard 30 days before yours will.

Also should you decide to keep heifers out of a FS 6.5 you will be baling more hay to feed those cows in the future-- which also cuts into your profits. It's just not worth it especially with the price of Fertilizer these days.

I have an example for ya-- real quick.....
In 2008 we sold simangus calves frame score 5.8 to 6.0 by video auction on a truckload basis. Born in October weaned in April weighed in at 680 lbs and were loaded in July at 800 lbs they brought $1.01 per pound.
My neighbor, who like you, likes the bigguns, sold his calves at 800lbs for $0.89 a loss of $96 per head. Since then he has sold his large framed cows and herd sires--- to maximize profits and concentrate on ROI down the road and quality lbs.
Good Luck
 
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kenny thomas

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edrsimms, thanks for your input. To clairfy a few things, my cows are mostly frame 5-5.5 and crossbred. The reason I said I like the 6.5 bull is to jack up the calves. End up with 5.5 to 6 frame calves from a cow that I can winter on grass and hay. I have never gotten docked for the calves being too tall. This is the reason I stated no heifers will be kept as the heifers could get too big. Maybe not but it is easier for me to buy replacements and know for sure what I am getting.
Again I appreciate all opinions and will consider all of them.
 

LNT

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edrsimms":3oupwjnh said:
kenny thomas":3oupwjnh said:
Simmental breeders and users. I am looking at a young bull for light use this year and heavy use next year.
I have cross cows and will not be keeping heifers from him. Below are his numbers.

CE-12.3
BW-0.4
WW-35.2
YW-62.8
MCE-6.6
Milk-2.6 I may have written this one wrong. seems low.
MWW-20.2
STAY-21.3
CWT-0.4
YG-.12
MRB-.32
BF-.03
REA-.05
API-127
TI-69

WW was 759
Frame is about 6.5 (Just how I like it)
He is 15 months old, good muscle, good disposition.
He is AI, out of In Dew Time.
All shots, wormed, and magnet put in his stomach.
Price is $1600.00

What are your thoughts? Again, he would be used on common cross cows with no heifers kept.

I think this bull is ok for a terminal sire -- like you I wouldn't keep heifers off of him because he lacks some important maternal traits like MWW (directly related to WW and MM) and MM. For him to have a 2.6 MM EPD it means that both his sire and dam are weak in the Maternal trait categories. When looking at In Dew Time his WW, YW, MM and MWW are all weak. The YW bothers me a bit because this represents feed efficiency and low growth.A 62 is a little better than average-- so what. As far as his other traits go in the carcass areas-- he is somewhat weak to just average, which wont impress the feeder buyer much. In Dew Time (IDT) is not very strong in his carcass merit either and the apple doesnt fall too far from the tree. I think you could do better for $1600. Also when purchasing a PB Simm as a Terminal SIre you should be concentrating more on the (TI) In Dew Time, has very low accuracies for most of the traits for being a 2003 model. This tells me what I expect is that he hasn't been used that much as an AI sire and he is basically and umproved entity. I think you would be taking a chance on using any Son of In Dew Time for the same reasons. I personally have never considered using IDT because we don't normally keep a calf as a potential herd sire with a TI as low as 69.. Those calves end up castrated during Spring work.
Another thing I dont like about this bull is his Frame Score-- 6.5 it too much frame and you will take a hit on your feeders come sale time, which is taking money out of your pocket. You have to get out of the rut of these larger Frame scores and concentrate more on quality pounds of beef produced rather than quantity pounds. I realize you are being paid (by the pound) but a buyer trying to maximize his return on investment will not pay you top $ for frame score 6.5 calves. He knows that those calves will take longer to finish and a quick turn around on those larger calves will be non-existant-- so he/she will pay you less money. Frame score 5.8 to 6.0 calves will be bringing top money on sale day as those calves will exit the feed yard 30 days before yours will.

Also should you decide to keep heifers out of a FS 6.5 you will be baling more hay to feed those cows in the future-- which also cuts into your profits. It's just not worth it especially with the price of Fertilizer these days.

I have an example for ya-- real quick.....
In 2008 we sold simangus calves frame score 5.8 to 6.0 by video auction on a truckload basis. Born in October weaned in April weighed in at 680 lbs and were loaded in July at 800 lbs they brought $1.01 per pound.
My neighbor, who like you, likes the bigguns, sold his calves at 800lbs for $0.89 a loss of $96 per head. Since then he has sold his large framed cows and herd sires--- to maximize profits and concentrate on ROI down the road and quality lbs.
Good Luck

In Dew Time is a 2005 model, ranks in the top 5% for TI and is in the top 1% for marbling...why would you say his carcass merit is bad? And I believe he was in the top 10 of most used sires in 2008.
 
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kenny thomas

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Good or bad, right or wrong, I bought him yesterday and he is out with 10 cows. Will see what happens. Sure is gentle though. And after hauling him 174 miles you could walk up and put your hand on his hips.
 

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