Should you buy the name brand surfactant?

[JWBrahman]

No. Cheap liquid detergent works just as well.

This experiment has been repeated every year at LSU for decades. We did it in Charlie Johnson's plant propagation class when I was an undergrad. http://www.lsuagcenter.com/en/communica ... hnson1.htm

Detergent, not to be confused with soap, is a surfactant. It works by making water"wetter", allowing it to interact with oil and grease. It breaks down the surface tension, hence the name surfactant. Soap is made from plant and animal fats. Detergents/Surfactants are a petrochemical product.

Surfactant is added to water and herbicide to break down the surface tension of the mixture. There is no difference in doing it with brand name surfactant or dollar store surfactant, the surface tension is still broken.

 

[inyati13]

yep yep. A drop of rain beads on a freshly waxed car. Touch it with a molecule of detergent and it goes as flat as a balloon hit with a pin.

 

[Caustic Burno]

"So Why Not Just Use Common Kitchen Soaps and Detergents?

There are very few adjuvant "soaps" on the market today. Most soaps are in bars and are used for bathing. Also, soaps react with cations in soil and fertilizer and can leave a precipitate residue on foliage. Most greenhouse workers remember gray precipitate on foliage resulting from soap residue.

Today, dishwashing liquids contain both anionic and nonionic surfactants. In most circumstances, their combined effects are synergistic and very potent. None are labeled for use on plants.

Natural Surfactants

Natural surfactants are biodegradable, wetting agents and oils that are processed differently from "crop oils" and alkylated sugars. Materials such as coconut oils, palm oils, castor oils, lanolins, wheat amino acids, and many others have been used in the past, but there is little research to verify these products are effective when used in combination with pesticides or in a greenhouses environment. Furthermore, there is evidence that these products may serve as food sources for bacteria and fungi. Until research gives us confidence in these products, exercise caution when using them.

Bottom Line?

Certain pesticides are recommended to be applied with oils, others with only non-ionic surfactants. The pesticide label specifies whether an adjuvant is needed and which class of adjuvants to use. These recommendations are strict for a reason. Experimenting with surfactants is a risky business. If, after reading the label, you are still unclear about which adjuvant to use, ask the company that produces the pesticide. They will tell you if a surfactant is present in the pesticide or which surfactant products can safely be used with the pesticide. There has been much research conducted with adjuvants and adjuvant / pesticide interaction. Most pesticides have specific requirements. So after you spend a few hundred dollars for a pint of pesticide, ask yourself, "Do I want this product to work?" Add the recommended adjuvant!

Additional References

Baird, J.V., and J.P. Zublena. 1993. Soil Facts: Using wetting Agents (Nonionic Surfactants) on Soil. North Carolina Cooperative Extension Service Publication. AG-439-25."

 

[Caustic Burno]

This is not just soap but chemistry it gets down to ionization and miscibility.
Immiscible is the property where two substances are not capable of combining to form a homogeneous mixture.
You are not just putting soap in water you are combining a herbicide or pesticide and there lies the importance
of the "right soap". Not to mention the 18 tons of regs for using the wrong soaps that all go back to
the clean water act.

 

[JWBrahman]

If I spend several hundred dollars on a pint of herbicide there are many other questions I will ask myself that are not surfactant related.

Sorry Caustic, we did it in test plots at LSU. Yes, we used the cheap green stuff. Yes, I am licensed by the state to dispense horticultural advice. Yes, my stepfather taught chemistry at SELU for 40 years and he will back me up on this.

 

[Caustic Burno]

If I spend several hundred dollars on a pint of herbicide there are many other questions I will ask myself that are not surfactant related.

Sorry Caustic, we did it in yes plots at LSU. Yes, we used the cheap green stuff. Yes, I am licensed by the state to dispense horticultural advice. Yes, my stepfather taught chemistry at SELU for 40 years and he will back me up on this.

They are not all the same and I am licensed as well
Secondly my field is organic chemistry for forty years as of yesterday matter of fact.
I also taught it.

 

[JWBrahman]

CB, grab your surfactant. Take it to dollar general. Compare ingredients. If u r still unconvinced call my mother, she is the director of safety and hazardous waste management at SELU.

 

[Caustic Burno]

CB, grab your surfactant. Take it to dollar general. Compare ingredients. If u r still unconvinced call my mother, she is the director of safety and hazardous waste management at SELU.

I don't need to call your mom or dad to glean knowledge
on the subject as they are way more universities they say different.
Number one violating the label is violating the law that can leave a mark.
If you want to get into certifications I have a long list.

Hazmat ,HazWoper, Advanced Fire Fighter, Organic Chemistry, (NASA trained) Root Cause Failure Analyst .
I worked daily with a list of alphabet federal and state agencies from Homeland Security,EPA, OSHA, TECQ and down.

Your turn to pee higher.

 

[Bigfoot]

I've got a PHD (poor hungry and desperate). Will a bottle of imitation palmolive do what a surfactant will?

 

[TexasBred]

I've got a PHD (poor hungry and desperate). Will a bottle of imitation palmolive do what a surfactant will?

:lol2: :lol2: :nod: :nod: I use Joy

 

[skyhightree1]

crops I use true surfactant .. Pastures I use cases of dish soap.

 

[highgrit]

What's the name brand of the detergents you have used? I'm all for trying something different and cheaper. But the issue of suds has me wondering if a detergent is feasible. I've been using a product called Traction for a surfactant, and it seems to be pretty good.

 

[skyhightree1]

What's the name brand of the detergents you have used? I'm all for trying something different and cheaper. But the issue of suds has me wondering if a detergent is feasible. I've been using a product called Traction for a surfactant, and it seems to be pretty good.

I use joy Palmolive and dawn mostly

 

[highgrit]

And I assume you're happy with the results? And how much would you use for 50 gallons.

 

[Kell-inKY]

How much as a ratio to 2,4-d? I was never able to find out and just added a "good amount"

my PHD is a "post hole digger"

 

[Bigfoot]

Once before, this discussion came up. I think somebody proved a surfactant was cheaper when you compare amount to amount.

 

[skyhightree1]

What's the name brand of the detergents you have used? I'm all for trying something different and cheaper. But the issue of suds has me wondering if a detergent is feasible. I've been using a product called Traction for a surfactant, and it seems to be pretty good.

I use joy Palmolive and dawn mostly

 

[Caustic Burno]

What's the name brand of the detergents you have used? I'm all for trying something different and cheaper. But the issue of suds has me wondering if a detergent is feasible. I've been using a product called Traction for a surfactant, and it seems to be pretty good.

I use joy Palmolive and dawn mostly

Sky because it works doesn't mean it's legal. A dollar bottle of soap is not worth a the fine
or never being able to own a firearm again. You are opening yourself to alphabet soup of agencies.
I dealt with these people on a daily basis for years they have got my mind right.
The minute you use it off label you have committed a crime. They will nail your hide to the barn door here for off label use. Lord help you if it falls under the Clean Water Act.

 

[backhoeboogie]

Lord help you if it falls under the Clean Water Act.

Aint that the truth. Don't take a bucket of water out of the Brazos and then try to pour it back in! You gotta purify it first. Or else face the wrath of hades.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Sky this is an example of the MSDS label for ag surfactant.
You better have it with your paper work if you ever get inspected.
This is on the jug.
SURFACTANT FOR HERBICIDES MSDS
VIII SPILL OR LEAK PROTECTION
Wear appropriate protective clothing and equipment during clean up. Keep persons not involved in clean up
away from spill. Absorb spilled material. Avoid use of water until most of the spill has been absorbed on
absorbent material. Slippery conditions will be worsened by the addition of water. Transfer liquids and
absorbed material to containers for recovery or disposal.. Keep spills and cleaning runoff out of municipal
sewers and water sources. Recovered material that can not be used by label directions should be disposed
of in accord with local, state and federal regulations.
IX EXPOSURE CONTROLS
Avoid personal contact: This material is intended for use as a pesticide adjuvant. All precautions
recommended for the use of the pesticide, used in combination with this product, should be followed. The
wetting and adhesive properties of this product may enhance the inherent personal dangers of the pesticide
used.
Recommended personal protect ion for the use of this product are Clean body covering work clothing,
impervious gloves, and safety glasses with side shields. Exposure to this product , by itself, should not
require need for a respirator, however when exposure to spray mists occur, the respiratory protection
recommended with the combined pesticide should be followed. If no such recommendation use an air
purifying MSHA/NIOSH respirator with a pesticide cartridge and dust/mist filters.
X SPECIAL PRECAUTIONS
Handling Precautions: Avoid personal contact. Avoid breathing vapors and/or spray mist. Avoid container
damage. Do not put leaking or damaged containers in storage.
Storing Precautions: Store in safe, cool, well ventilated area away from ignition sources. Avoid areas of
extreme heat. KEEP OUT OF REACH OF CHILDREN.
Other Precautions: Do not contaminate waters by cleaning equipment or disposal of waste.