Should somebody stand up and say something?!

[Anonymous]

This has been bothering me for a couple of years, I'd like to see what you all think...

There is a 4-Her in our area that hire's a jock to do all of his work (ok the parents pay). This guy travels to several states to purchase a steer and a heifer for the boy. He then keeps them at his house and breaks them out, feeds, trains hair, clips, hauls to and from shows, and does all the clipping and fitting at the shows. He does everything, the kid simply walks the calves into the ring...and not just his own calves, he also show's several for the jock and claims they are his as well. The boy is 16 and couldn't pick out a calf to save his life, can't halter break, clip, nothing! He can't even have a conversation about showing.

The other kids in the county obviously can't compete with a pro's work at a small junior show. The problem isn't w/ the boy having nice calve's that are also well fitted, I think that is great. All kids need a mentor. However, he is not learning (or doing) a thing from HIS beef project, which is the entire purpose of the 4-h program!

I have been seriously thinking about talking to the fair board to change some rules. Would you do the same or let it go? (I wouldn't rat anybody out, just make level playing fields for the other youth in the county.)
Please help me before I go off on this boy and his parents, lol!!!

 

[Angus Cattle Girl]

Personally, if it really bothers you, speak up.

It does seem unfair to the other kid that would have to compete against this.

But hey, that kid can go out and blow all the money he wants. Remember, he is the one flushing his money and his knowledge. AT least the kids that work hard and take care of their animals on their will attain knowledge and will earn money in the long run.

Let the kid waste his money. If it really does bother you though, speak up.

My 2 cents.

 

[tom4018]

Can't recall exactly how the rules read for the 4h/ffa show at the state fair but only the parents/family, ag teacher or 4h advisor are allowed to help. I have seen some kids that don't do much at the shows and the parents do all the work. I help my daughter but would say she does 90% of it on her own.

In my opinion it is hard to say something without stepping on toes, makes you wonder if sending an anonymous letter to the board would bring their attention to it without getting you into it.

 

[Anonymous]

Let it go. There is nothing "illegal" about what he is doing. Alot of people have herdsman that actually do all the work. They just own the cattle. All the big names that win at shows like NAILE and Denver that I know of always have a herdsman that fits, shows, does everything except own the animal. They do all the work while the owner gets all the notoriety. Then again that is why some breed associations have a herdsman of the year award to recognize the herdsman for all the hard work they do. Quit being jealous and hire yourself a steer jock or just let it go bottom line.

Actually showing other ppl's cattle is "illegal" at this show. This is not a "Denver" show, it's a small junior county 4-H show. There is no "herdsman" in 4-H. And how am I being "jealous" as I am way past my years to show junior and my children way to young to show in anything beyond pee wee, which happens to be non-competitive! And BTW I don't need to hire a jock as I am just as good as his fat jock. I'm simply stating that this is for the YOUTH, not the pro's! It is a LEARNING experience, I believe you missed that point as you were toooo busy being correct :lol2: "bottom line!"

 

[CPL]

Honestly I believe I'd let it go too. You could try and do something and you may get something accomplished, but thats not what I'd spend my time on. One of those Oh Well type things.

 

[Anonymous]

Let it go. There is nothing "illegal" about what he is doing. Alot of people have herdsman that actually do all the work. They just own the cattle. All the big names that win at shows like NAILE and Denver that I know of always have a herdsman that fits, shows, does everything except own the animal. They do all the work while the owner gets all the notoriety. Then again that is why some breed associations have a herdsman of the year award to recognize the herdsman for all the hard work they do. Quit being jealous and hire yourself a steer jock or just let it go bottom line.

Actually showing other ppl's cattle is "illegal" at this show. This is not a "Denver" show, it's a small junior county 4-H show. There is no "herdsman" in 4-H. And how am I being "jealous" as I am way past my years to show junior and my children way to young to show in anything beyond pee wee, which happens to be non-competitive! And BTW I don't need to hire a jock as I am just as good as his fat jock. I'm simply stating that this is for the YOUTH, not the pro's! It is a LEARNING experience, I believe you missed that point as you were toooo busy being correct :lol2: "bottom line!"

The point is that bringing it to the attention of the fair and blowing up would be the immature way to handle it. It will make you look bad and jealous to everyone at the fair. I would just let it go and move on as what is done is done and you cannot change it.

Who said anything about "blowing up" at the fair board? And how would it make me look "bad and jealous" by giving 100% of the youth equal competing rights? You are right on one thing "what is done is done", but it's been going on for too many years...and I do believe I could change it for the better...for everyone! I am not trying to get this kid into any trouble, heck I don't even want to mention his name! He really is a nice young man. He just needs to understand that this is HIS project, not his jock's. If his jock wanted to teach him rather than do for him, this wouldn't even be a problem.

Why do you keep referring to me as "jealous"? How do you figure?? If standing up for innocent 4-h'ers makes me "jealous", then I guess I am :tiphat: At least I am not afraid to stand up for what's right and wrong
;-)

 

[CPL]

First off I don't think 78 called you jealous and I don't think anyone thinks you are. But, I do agree that it will more than likely cause a blow up. There are exceptions, but I could definitely see that happening at the local 4-H club where I live- unfortunately it'd be parents and kids involved but that'd be a total different story along with the FFA officer elections from last year........ :roll: . People are just that way. In the end, even if this kid does start having to do the work, his parents will still go a buy him the best so he'd still be winning. IMO if you are going to start cracking down on the kid from having a steer jock do alot of the work, you have to crack down on the kids who have their parents do everything. Some of these kids have parents that could just about be professionals.

When it comes down to it I'd make sure your kids are learning, working and minding their own business. Now if this was the NWSS and the story line was a bit different it might be something to bring up. But this is just local 4-h show and I think the best thing for it is a little bit of benign neglect.

 

[grand chaser09]

just let it be. there are kids like that in my area as well. i wouldn't go off on him or his parents until he says something snotty or rude to your kid [like my mom did]. there isn't any illegal practices in this... and some kids don't even acre about their calf jsut the money they make off of it. some kids are just like this. i speak from experiance of dealing with them and you can tell who knows what their doing and who doesn't.

 

[*Cowgirl*]

If I were you, I would let it go. As has been said, herdsmen work is not uncommon.

In response to the only advisor or parent/ kid does most of the work.....who gets to decide how much help is too much? Also, are we going to disallow all involvement by others that care? For example, the first year that I showed, I got a TON of help from a family friend of no relation whose kids had shown for years. He helped clip my calf; he loaned me supplies, etc. Are we going to discourage all of this?

As for the "not his calf thing" - unless you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the calf doesn't belong to the child, you're just going to get laughed at. For most registered animals, it goes by the name on those papers. For market animals, establishing definite ownership is difficult if not impossible.

 

[Avalon]

I agree with the other posters here. It is against JR. rules for the calf to be out of the kids hands during his supposed ownership peroid. Show officials, County agents and Ag teachers all know it happens but it is hard for them to enforce (for a multitude of reasons). I always thought that a project was supposed to be a family affair but as my children reached showing age, I soon learned that some kids always happened to have another cousin that was a great cattle fitter (wink wink). We just learned how to out do the jocks. My kids and I got to where we could out-select them, out-feed them and out-fit them. We even knew where to find them. Dawgone we just never could seem to out-spend'em. Usually if they can hire a fitter they will have deep pockets. Never won a big one but had plenty of class and divison winners. Never ever had a hired hand other than a part time high schooler that fed when we were away.

What I'm trying to get to is that the potential bitterness is not worth you waisting your time over. Spend your time learning the cattle and teaching the kids. I once heard that when a bank teaches a new teller about conterfiet money, they spend the majority of their time working with the real stuff. Your time will be best spent by learning with and teaching your kids whats right. But do not settle for mediocrity if you're gonna compete.

Merry Christmas to all :santa:

 

[Bez+]

All of the above is why I quit judging and showing many years ago.

Let it go.

Those who put in the effort will know what they have done.

There are many who also know about these folks and how they raise that calf.

Just not worth it.

Bez+

 

[VCC]

We have a family that is similar in the way they work, they spend 10s of thousands of dollars on steers for our county fair, they have people at their house who tend to the cattle for them. The thing that we all smile about is that most the big show cattle producers know about them and stick it to them on the price.
Granted the top end of cattle at our fair could compete at our State Fair or even Denver, but most of the others are just good fictional feeder cattle, and the bottom end are usually poor calves that would be marked down at a feed lot and to make it worse, they don't feed them right.
There are a couple of family in our area that still beat the one family most the time, by buying good calves that they go find them selves and working their butts off, up at 5 am rinsing and blowing, home from school work the hair, working the hair again at dusk and kicking the calves out after dark.
You can compete with them if you want to spend the time and money (We live in the west and most the calves come from out of state so you have to travel which cost) Key is taking a good calf and feeding it right and having it right when the fair comes around.
There are allot of those at our fair who complain that the calves that win were in a cool box, that is why they win, those same people that have good hairy cattle would win if it was a slick shear show, you can't beat good calves with or with out hair when they are fed right.
Once you make it competitive there are going to be people that go past the point of reason to win. Market steers programs were set up to teach the kids responsibility, economics, along with other life lessons, those kids who are in it for that will still get those experiences, they just wont win the purple ribbon. They will make a profit if they did everything right. (All blue ribbon steers at our fair sale with a sale price average of 2.50 a pound)

So if you are concerned with the kids and the experience they are getting is loosing its value, I think they still learn allot. You have to figure they family that is hiring their help; their kids are the ones missing out on the experience.

 

[L Weir]

How do the other parents feel about this? Are they upset about this like you? We have quite a few families in our club/county that are I consider professional fitters. Those kids show at other shows outside the county and state, so they should be professional. I know how you feel it's hard not to get upset. Is that 16 year old going to expect his parents get him his first job or pay everything for him in life? Your children are at least learning responsiblities, he may not. I wouldn't make an issue about it. The way I hear from parents in other sports, scouts, etc. parent problems are the same.

 

[wildcatter]

If you keep letting people break the rules, why have them. Isn't your duty to say something? I am tired of hearing excuses as to why one shouldn't stand up for what is right. Yes, it will cause you much grief to point out the problem, but will it change things for the the better in the end. Sometime you have to bite the bullet and be the catalist for change.

Our county is turning into a county that lacks morales and has no respect for people or their property. If you know that someone is molesting kids in your neighborhood, are you going to look the other way? It happens all the time. People are too afraid to get involved or they just don't want to expend the energy. It saddens me that people turn the other way rather than standing up for what is right.

I know cheating at a cattle show is small. But is it really? If your child wins the Ft. Worth Stock Show, they will bring home around $250,000...Ft. Worth doesn't cap the amount a jr brings home. Win a heifer breed championship at San Antonio and win a $10,000 scholorship. If you were to steal that amount from your employer, would they look the other way?

Tell me....What is tolerance of rule violators teaching our society? Cheating on test will get you into the best colleges, parents with the most money can get a child out of trouble with the school or police, and/or you don't need to work in order to reap the rewards.

Hard work doesn't pay these days. Regardless of what is said, cheaters do hurt you as well as the show.

If you want change, you have to begin with the small stuff. I hope you will take the issue to the board. If they don't want to follow their own bylaws, then you need to abolish them.

 

[novatech]

It is more of a case of where do you draw the line. I am willing to bet that there are a lot of parents out there that do most of the work on the show calves. To me that is just as wrong.
Part of your job as a parent is to teach the kids the difference in what right and wrong and where the line should be drawn. Dealing with this is also part of their education. Is it right to teach them to look the other way. Or is right to stand up and fight. That is your job as a parent and what you want to teach your children, Not ours.
If you do decide to fight I would definitely get some other people on your side. Other wise they just look at you as another jealous parent.

 

[texanstraders]

In the 4H and local shows, don't the judges ask questions of the exhibitors about their animals. It would seem to me that that is part of the judging. While they may have an outstanding and well behaved animal, they probably won't be able to answer questions from the judge. Is that not done ? (I have NO show experience, so forgive me if this is a stupid response)

 

[mobgrazer]

I have been to shows where someone would say something and some shows where nothing would get said. I had an issue with the way everything was run at a show and will not support the 4H in any way now.

I was at one show where I was told I could not sign to my deaf daughter when she was in the ring. I asked about a translator and they did not have one. After a discussion I pulled all 4 of my daughters out and left. As always I pre registered saying she was deaf. After a few letters without a decent response of the situation I gave up on 4H all together.

I think it would be a great program if there were more honest parents out there.

 

[TheBullLady]

I can't imagine NOT saying anything! I agree, I can't understand when people go so wossie they were afraid to pi$$ someone off! Who cares who gets mad.. .it is WRONG, and they shouldn't be allowed to get away with it. It gives their kid an unfair advantage, and frankly, I don't understand what lesson a parent is supposed to be teaching their kid with that kind of stuff. And I'll be willing to bet there are many other parents who know about this, and are also afraid to do anything. So make some calls.. get a group together if you feel more comfortable with others involved, but I would make sure my position was clear.

 

[TxSimbrahShower]

Does the jock live in the same county?

The following is the rule that we have in our county. Of course, I don't know that any representative from the fair association has ever checked anyone.

13. Any animal that is to be exhibited in the Junior Livestock Show must be cared for in Montgomery County (EXCEPTION: See General Exception Rule, Page ). They must be under the daily care of and trained, fitted or dressed for show by the Junior Exhibitor under the direction and assistance from parents, siblings, grandparents or legal guardians; CEA's or VAT's from County; or other feeders or leaders from Montgomery County. Each Exhibitor and his or her immediate family member(s), parent(s), guardian(s) and/or representative agree that in exchange for participation in the Junior Livestock Show they will allow MontgomeryCounty Fair Association representative(s) permission to enter unannounced onto the property where the Exhibitor's project is located for purposes of inspection.

the part about other feeders and leaders from Montgomery County was just added a couple years ago. I'm thinking it had something to do with a problem like you are talking about. Kids putting steers in others coolers, being taken care of by other people.

This will be my son's 8th year to show at the county fair, we've never had any unannounced project inspections. Course, on the cattle, we mainly use our own bred cattle and the turkey's, well, they are ordered through the county, so, guess we wouldn't have any reason for an inspection.

There are kids from our county that use jocks to find their animals, kids from our county that show animals for jocks at the Texas majors, if they pull grand champion, they get an agreed upon amount and the jock gets the rest of the money. Alot has to do with your fair association and what exactly they will enforce.

 

[Anonymous]

Thank you all!

Mobgrazer- I am sorry to hear about your situation. I got ticked just reading, the good Lord know's I would have really lost my temper if in your shoes!

I am not sure how other parents feel about this deal, I tend to keep things under my hat and don't do a lot of gossiping.

Txsimbrahshower- your county has some great rules! (This jock live's in the county to the east of us.)
The livestock association is having a meeting towards the end of January. I am going to gather rules that other counties have adopted and present them at that meeting. One of the rules being yours I don't think I'll need any other parents to help with that. I'd rather not rant about the past, but discuss new rule regulations to protect our dedicated youth. Can't see why anyone would want to argue that!

If you or anybody else have some great county rules, I'd love to hear them all. That'll give me even more thinking power :nod: lol