Selecting bulls for new farm

Help Support CattleToday:

Warren Allison

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 9, 2020
Messages
198
Reaction score
98
Location
Georgia
There is a chi angus breeder not far from me at all I think his farm is Waco farms in junction city. I’m sure we are talking about the same guy. I’ve got a friend I work with that used them and said he loved them crossed with commercial angus cows. Clams the growth was just as good or better than Charolais cross calves.
There ya go! Get some Chi-Angus cows from him, and some Brangus cows, and a Brangus bull and a Chi-angus bull, and start your own Mega Ultra blacks! :cool: You'd raise bigger and better steers than you could with any other cross out there, even Simmental. And, you could probably sell your heifers as replacements for more than they'd bring through the weigh pen. If you still want some black baldies, breed some of both kinds of cow to a registered BB Black Hereford bull a time or two and see if you like them.
 

Warren Allison

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 9, 2020
Messages
198
Reaction score
98
Location
Georgia
Warren Allison, I have noticed you mention Chi Angus bulls a few times. I have been curious about them, for a while. Years ago there were some of the old full bloods around and not many liked them much after using them. The cows didn’t look like they had enough milk to raise a calf of the ones I saw. The last few years I have seen some Chi Angus bulls advertised for sale in the area. The pictures look to be a range from very Angus like to very tall, leggy and lean. I have often wondered how those kind of bulls would do as far as calving and how daughters would do as far as milk and maternal instincts. Right now I have a group of coming second calf cows that I bought as 500 lbs heifers. Have no idea what they may be. They are not straight Angus and most times I can figure it out if they are Sim or Limousin or Gelbvieh influenced but as they have grown they aren’t very uniform and have had to cull some for not having enough milk. A few were culled for disposition problems too. I’ve wondered if I may have gotten some of those Chi Angus.
@Ky hills, these cows you had to cull because of disposition... were they always difficult or just when they had a calf? Reading an article about the man that started breeding the Black Herefords, he says "Herefords are the most docile of the beef breeds, and and great mommas. Angus cows can be too good a momma when it comes to their new calves. It is our intention to select for the docility of the Hereford, in this new breed." I have found this to be true with even pure Angus. They can get in your pocket in a hurry when they have a new calf on the ground. I have seen this trait in Brangus, too, which can be more aggressive with their new claves than say a Braford can. Chianina are one of the oldest breeds, tracing back at least 2200 years to Ancient Roman times. Obviously, these cows have produced adequate milk to feed these giant calves for over 2000 years, with relatively small udders. I wouldn't think that Angus blood would do anything to suppress milk, or could it? The Chi-Angus I have seen, seemed to have as big or bigger udders than the Chianina, and at least as big as Angus and other Angus crosses. Those Chianina x Brahma cows I had, raised those big ole Charolais calves with plenty of milk.

The Chi-Holsteins and the Chi-Brahmas were as docile and easy to handle as any other cows I have had. The man's Chianina bull was as halter-broke as a show steer, but he did collect him and AI-ed everything, since he was 3500 lbs, so the bull was handled a lot. The Chi-Angus bull I used to breed some of the Chi-Holstein cows with, was no more trouble than the Brangus bulls were. Those cows you had to cull for milking or disposition faults, were they more Angus looking? Or were they the taller, leggier and more lean ones?
 

Ky hills

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 4, 2016
Messages
3,064
Reaction score
467
Location
Clark County, KY
The ones That I have culled have been pretty much the larger framed ones, although not all. The ones with disposition issues have been ok day to day, but when working them they get worked up fast. Jumping up on the sides of the barn like they are crazy. That doesn't cut it here. Most of our cattle are calm and if they cause much problem its just from standing and not moving on. I have had some Angus that were flighty anytime and some that were vicious when they calved. I don't mind being protective at calving and for a time after that but we don't want anything problematic at other times. Even had a few calves by a Hereford bull that were as flighty as any Angus or anything else, that's just part of it with any breed. Typically though Herefords are our breed of choice as far as disposition and all things considered.
From the information that I have read, milking ability is not a strong suit of Chianina's. Maybe by now they have been crossed a lot and the cattle today are better at it. A few years back I posted a question about Chi Angus bulls on here, and the responses that I got from most folks were mainly responses about Chianinas. The consensus at that time was that most folks experiences were very negative, mainly in the area of poor dispositions. Again, maybe over time and crossing them the dispositions have improved.
I was interested in the Chi Angus back then to add some frame and growth to calves, but wasn't sure if they would be good for replacement females, as we tend to keep a few heifers every year.
 

Jeanne - Simme Valley

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 9, 2004
Messages
11,935
Reaction score
560
Location
Central Upstate New York
LOL - brings back old memories. We were in on some of the first Chi semen imported. We were in Kansas at the time. We scoured the states buying every OPEN Brown Swiss cow we could find. Bred them to Chi. The offspring turned out spitting image of the Chi's. White hair, black nose, black hide - but were beefier - yes the Br Swiss were thicker built than the Chi's. We had contracts in Oklahoma for every cow we got vet checked pregnant to Chi. We had a LOT of Brow Swiss cows running around at one point! Did not calve them out.
Chi bulls were easily 7' at the shoulder. I also was under the impression that they were NOT a good milker. They were dominantly used for draft animals.
 

Lee VanRoss

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 26, 2020
Messages
367
Reaction score
330
Like begets like. Any high milking cow is a hard keeper and a large heavy milker even more so.
My opinion, and the one that counts ...........here
 
OP
C

Cress27

Well-known member
Joined
May 28, 2019
Messages
102
Reaction score
9
Location
Eubank, ky
Where is all the Charolais guys at? Haven’t got much info on them and that was my original choice because there is a breeder within a mile of my new place. I haven’t talked to the guy down the road but I’ve heard he’s has debrucker stock.
 

gcreekrch

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 26, 2010
Messages
1,615
Reaction score
341
Where is all the Charolais guys at? Haven’t got much info on them and that was my original choice because there is a breeder within a mile of my new place. I haven’t talked to the guy down the road but I’ve heard he’s has debrucker stock.
Like the right kind of Charolais bulls and the calves we weaned last fall. We went back to using them because one onay needs so many replacement heifers back in the herd and the Char x heifers do sell a bit better. Last fall there was little difference in the weights or price between the Char steers and the Angus. I specifically asked the yard crew to sort them separately so I could see the difference. Maybe our Angus bulls aren’t that bad!
I will refrain from comment on the idea of Chianina as a good cross because there are none here. I would guess there are many good reasons for that phenomenon!
Good luck with whatever you do.
 

Warren Allison

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 9, 2020
Messages
198
Reaction score
98
Location
Georgia
The ones That I have culled have been pretty much the larger framed ones, although not all. The ones with disposition issues have been ok day to day, but when working them they get worked up fast. Jumping up on the sides of the barn like they are crazy. That doesn't cut it here. Most of our cattle are calm and if they cause much problem its just from standing and not moving on. I have had some Angus that were flighty anytime and some that were vicious when they calved. I don't mind being protective at calving and for a time after that but we don't want anything problematic at other times. Even had a few calves by a Hereford bull that were as flighty as any Angus or anything else, that's just part of it with any breed. Typically though Herefords are our breed of choice as far as disposition and all things considered.
From the information that I have read, milking ability is not a strong suit of Chianina's. Maybe by now they have been crossed a lot and the cattle today are better at it. A few years back I posted a question about Chi Angus bulls on here, and the responses that I got from most folks were mainly responses about Chianinas. The consensus at that time was that most folks experiences were very negative, mainly in the area of poor dispositions. Again, maybe over time and crossing them the dispositions have improved.
I was interested in the Chi Angus back then to add some frame and growth to calves, but wasn't sure if they would be good for replacement females, as we tend to keep a few heifers every year.
Well, originally, and for the past 2000 years until the 70's, in Italy, Chianina were triple-=purpose cattle, females used for milk cows, and steers used as draft oven. A good disposition is essential for either of those uses. But, from the 70's on, even in Italy, breeders started selecting more for beef traits, than dairy or draft. Disposition is crucial to the family milk cow, milked twice a day, or to oxen worked all day every day. Not so much for beef animals handled once or twice a year, I suppose. So I'd say if disposition and/or milking have deteriorated, it has been in the last 50 years, instead of improving. Crossing to Angus is the fix, or the cure, for these two flaws in other breeds, so I can't figure how they would get worse when Angus are bred to Chianina. Going back to the man raising Holstein-Chianina oxen...I don't recall any difference in the size or condition of the calves from his Holstein cows by the Chi bull, and his calves from his Chi cows by the Holstein bulls. Once they were weaned, you couldn't tell which was which. You have me curious now. There is a 40 yr old Brangus operation about 15 miles from me, that have in the past few years, added Angus as well as Chi-Angus cows and bulls, to breed Ultrablacks. I do some horse trading with them, and run up on some of their hands at team ropings, sortings and pennings. I will talk to them Friday night, if they come, about the disposition and milk production of the Chi-Angus cows. My client down south that has the Brangus operation, that is breeding to Black Herefords, has bought up about 40-50 Chi-Angus cows. He bred about 1/3rd to his Brangus bulls, 1/3rd to a Brahma ( wants to get some F1 Mega Brangus), and 1/3rd to Black Herefords. All AI, so these cows were handled a lot. These cows will be coming in next month, so I will ask him about their disposition and milk production, too.
 

Warren Allison

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 9, 2020
Messages
198
Reaction score
98
Location
Georgia
LOL - brings back old memories. We were in on some of the first Chi semen imported. We were in Kansas at the time. We scoured the states buying every OPEN Brown Swiss cow we could find. Bred them to Chi. The offspring turned out spitting image of the Chi's. White hair, black nose, black hide - but were beefier - yes the Br Swiss were thicker built than the Chi's. We had contracts in Oklahoma for every cow we got vet checked pregnant to Chi. We had a LOT of Brow Swiss cows running around at one point! Did not calve them out.
Chi bulls were easily 7' at the shoulder. I also was under the impression that they were NOT a good milker. They were dominantly used for draft animals.
My friend that raised the Chi-Holsteins for the pulling competitions., said the first pair of oxen he bought in the 70's were Chi-Brown Swiss! But, it seems to me, that if the Chianina weren't good milkers, then they wouldn't be the oldest domestic cattle breed. Those Chi cows have been feeding those giant calves for over 2000 years now!
 

gcreekrch

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 26, 2010
Messages
1,615
Reaction score
341
Well, originally, and for the past 2000 years until the 70's, in Italy, Chianina were triple-=purpose cattle, females used for milk cows, and steers used as draft oven. A good disposition is essential for either of those uses. But, from the 70's on, even in Italy, breeders started selecting more for beef traits, than dairy or draft. Disposition is crucial to the family milk cow, milked twice a day, or to oxen worked all day every day. Not so much for beef animals handled once or twice a year, I suppose. So I'd say if disposition and/or milking have deteriorated, it has been in the last 50 years, instead of improving. Crossing to Angus is the fix, or the cure, for these two flaws in other breeds, so I can't figure how they would get worse when Angus are bred to Chianina. Going back to the man raising Holstein-Chianina oxen...I don't recall any difference in the size or condition of the calves from his Holstein cows by the Chi bull, and his calves from his Chi cows by the Holstein bulls. Once they were weaned, you couldn't tell which was which. You have me curious now. There is a 40 yr old Brangus operation about 15 miles from me, that have in the past few years, added Angus as well as Chi-Angus cows and bulls, to breed Ultrablacks. I do some horse trading with them, and run up on some of their hands at team ropings, sortings and pennings. I will talk to them Friday night, if they come, about the disposition and milk production of the Chi-Angus cows. My client down south that has the Brangus operation, that is breeding to Black Herefords, has bought up about 40-50 Chi-Angus cows. He bred about 1/3rd to his Brangus bulls, 1/3rd to a Brahma ( wants to get some F1 Mega Brangus), and 1/3rd to Black Herefords. All AI, so these cows were handled a lot. These cows will be coming in next month, so I will ask him about their disposition and milk production, too.
For the record Warren, how many cows do you own? Sounds now like you are giving examples of others instead of your own.
Forgive my forwardness of asking a personal question but ask it I will. It is my inquisitive nature.....
 

Rydero

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 22, 2019
Messages
362
Reaction score
301
Location
Manitoba, Canada
Where is all the Charolais guys at? Haven’t got much info on them and that was my original choice because there is a breeder within a mile of my new place. I haven’t talked to the guy down the road but I’ve heard he’s has debrucker stock.
We breed everything Charolais. Primarily blacks and reds. If I was starting from scratch and going to breed char I'd probably just go with red cattle. The tan calves do very well at auction here consistently near the top of the market. We find the Charolais crossed calves wean consistently heavier - I've focused on buying bulls with moderate birth weight and high weaning weight Epd's. Usually less than 90lb birth weight with a negative birth weight # and +50lb weaning weight. For a terminal cross I'm extremely partial to them.
 

Warren Allison

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 9, 2020
Messages
198
Reaction score
98
Location
Georgia
For the record Warren, how many cows do you own? Sounds now like you are giving examples of others instead of your own.
Forgive my forwardness of asking a personal question but ask it I will. It is my inquisitive nature.....
Just what is your problem, Hoss? There are better words to describe your "nature" than "inquisitive" or "forwardness". Sounds like I am giving examples of other people's cattle instead of my own?!! Sounds like hell... it is there in black and white print, when I talk about cattle I owned and examples of other people's cattle I am familiar with. Like the exchange with KY Hills regarding traits of Chi-Angus cows: I told of my experience with other Chi-cross cows and heifers I have raised calves from , and the Chi-angus bulls I have used. But, I never fooled with many Chi-Angus cows for any length of time, so I commented on some experience that clients, friends and/or neighbors have had with them. Why does that bother you? Not that anyone really cares what you think.

How many cows do I own? What possible business is it of yours? And what difference would it make? This forumn, and others, have members who are farm managers, ranch foremen, vets and vet techs, auctioneers, stockyard mangers, feedlot operators... a lot of folks with a vast knowledge of, and decades of experience with, cattle. Some may or may not own cattle right now, and some may never have owned any. So?!!!! You think that you might know more than them, just because you have bought a cow?!! ROFLMFAO. Well, I will answer your question Karen. The answer is, it depends on what day it is. My goal is to never own any for more than a day or two. Anything I buy these days, has a place to go before I buy them. Or, I am buying them for other people. About 2013 or 2014, I started selling off my cattle, and hay equipment, and letting go of a lot of leased farms. By 2015, I sold my last cow and my last piece of hay equipment. Since then, the only time I ever own and keep any cattle at all, will be 6-8 Corrientes, or about the same amount of weanlings to yearlings, depending on what kind of horse I am fooling with.... ropers or penning/sorting. And that is only when there isn't someone close with an arena that has practice nights or jackpots.

I always made money buying and selling horses...raising them., not so much. Even though I kept a stallion or two ( I get my money in a few minutes standing a stallion), I never raised many foals.. just maybe a wife, daughter's or gf's mare or two. I always loved raising cattle, and for some reason, enjoyed the hell out of growing hay. Two things happened in 2006, when I was 50. I had a pretty big bermuda hay operation, with many horse clients I sold to. We had a hell of a draught in 2006, and instead of the usual 4-5 cutttings, I got one. I started buying truck loads of 3x3x8 and 4x4x8 bales of alfalfa and alfalfa-grass hay to service my equine clients. Giving $35 or $40 a bale, plus shipping, and selling it for $120- $145 a bale. Hell of a lot more profit than growing my own, even in good years with no equipment breakdowns. Every year, for every place in the country they have draught and hay shortages, there will be areas with a bumper crop and hay will be cheap there. I also broke my back in 2 places in 2016 ( and ribs and an arm). Each year after that, it became harder and harder for me to fool with hay, and cows, and fencing, etc. So like I said, by 2015 I was out of the business. I kept a tractor with a loader,. and a couple of trailers... to unload and load and deliver these big bales with. I had discovered that. just like horses and hay, I made more money with a LOT less work, buying and selling cattle.

Any way, if you have anymore problems with my posts, just use that little wheel on your mouse, to scroll on past.
 
Last edited:

gcreekrch

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 26, 2010
Messages
1,615
Reaction score
341
Just what is your problem, Hoss? There are better words to describe your "nature" than "inquisitive" or "forwardness". Sounds like I am giving examples of other people's cattle instead of my own?!! Sounds like hell, it is there in black and white print, when I talk about cattle I owned and examples of other people's cattle I am familiar with. Like the exchange with KY Hills regarding traits of Chi-Angus cows: I told of my experience with other Chi-cross cows and heifers I have raised calves from , and the Chi-angus bulls I have used. But, I never fooled with many Chi-Angus cows for any length of time, so I commented on some experience that clients, friends and/or neighbors have had with them. Why does that bother you? Not that anyone really cares what you think.

How many cows do I own? What possible business is it of yours? And what difference would it make? This forumn, and others, have members who are farm managers, ranch foremen, vets and vet techs, auctioneers, stockyard mangers, feedlot operators... a lot of folks with a vast knowledge of, and decades of experience with, cattle. Some may or may not own cattle right now, and some may never have owned any. So?!!!! You think that you might know more than them, just because you have bought a cow?!! ROFLMFAO. Well, I will answer your question Karen. The answer is, it depends on what day it is. My goal is to never own any for more than a day or two. Anything I buy these days, has a place to go before I buy them. Or, I am buying them for other people. About 2013 or 2014, I started selling off my cattle, and hay equipment, and letting go of a lot of leased farms. By 2015, I sold my last cow and my last piece of hay equipment. Since then, the only time I ever own and keep any cattle at all, will be 6-8 Corrientes, or about the same amount of weanlings to yearlings, depending on what kind of horse I am fooling with.... ropers or penning/sorting. And that is only when there isn't someone close with an arena that has practice nights or jackpots.

I always made money buying and selling horses...raising them., not so much. Even though I kept a stallion or two ( I get my money in a few minutes standing a stallion), I never raised many foals.. just maybe a wife, daughter's or gf's mare or two. I always loved raising cattle, and for some reason, enjoyed the hell out of growing hay. Two things happened in 2006, when I was 50. I had a pretty big bermuda hay operation, with many horse clients I sold to. We had a hell of a draught in 2006, and instead of the usual 4-5 cutttings, I got one. I started buying truck loads of 3x3x8 and 4x4x8 bales of alfalfa and alfalfa-grass hay to service my equine clients. Giving $35 or $40 a bale, plus shipping, and selling it for $120- $145 a bale. Hell of a lot more profit than growing my own, even in good years with no equipment breakdowns. Every year, for every place in the country they have draught and hay shortages, there will be areas with a bumper crop and hay will be cheap there. I also broke my back in 2 places in 2016 ( and ribs and an arm). Each year after that, it became harder and harder for me to fool with hay, and cows, and fencing, etc. So like I said, by 2015 I was out of the business. I kept a tractor with a loader,. and a couple of trailers... to unload and load and deliver these big bales with. I had discovered that. just like horses and hay, I made more money with a LOT less work, buying and selling cattle.

Any way, if you have anymore problems with my posts, just use that little wheel on your muse, to scroll on past.
You answered my question fully and completely, thank you for fulfilling my thoughts. 😉
 
OP
C

Cress27

Well-known member
Joined
May 28, 2019
Messages
102
Reaction score
9
Location
Eubank, ky
We breed everything Charolais. Primarily blacks and reds. If I was starting from scratch and going to breed char I'd probably just go with red cattle. The tan calves do very well at auction here consistently near the top of the market. We find the Charolais crossed calves wean consistently heavier - I've focused on buying bulls with moderate birth weight and high weaning weight Epd's. Usually less than 90lb birth weight with a negative birth weight # and +50lb weaning weight. For a terminal cross I'm extremely partial to them.
Good solid advice thanks. I love the buckskin calves. I’ve seen them too the sales here. I’ve seen black nose Charolais top the market as well but most the time you take a little loss on the Charolais cross calves but I think you make more money if you’ve got more pounds even if it is 5 to 10 cents different.
 

CSM

Well-known member
Joined
May 21, 2007
Messages
302
Reaction score
7
Location
KY
Only one reason not to use a Charolais in my opinion and that would be if your friend isn’t using one. If you two are going to put a pot load together I would use the same breed and blood lines that he uses. ET brothers or 3/4 brothers would be my preference. I would want to mirror his operation in every way possible with the hopes of putting together a very uniform group. Good luck with your new farm.
 
OP
C

Cress27

Well-known member
Joined
May 28, 2019
Messages
102
Reaction score
9
Location
Eubank, ky
Like the right kind of Charolais bulls and the calves we weaned last fall. We went back to using them because one onay needs so many replacement heifers back in the herd and the Char x heifers do sell a bit better. Last fall there was little difference in the weights or price between the Char steers and the Angus. I specifically asked the yard crew to sort them separately so I could see the difference. Maybe our Angus bulls aren’t that bad!
I will refrain from comment on the idea of Chianina as a good cross because there are none here. I would guess there are many good reasons for that phenomenon!
Good luck with whatever you do.
What y’all think about this one this is the guy just down the road from the farm don’t know the bloodline or epds yet but he is a nice looking bull in my opinion
 

Attachments

  • 43E4E27E-F86A-47B0-9D0C-50D476F6E701.jpeg
    43E4E27E-F86A-47B0-9D0C-50D476F6E701.jpeg
    5.2 MB · Views: 19

gcreekrch

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 26, 2010
Messages
1,615
Reaction score
341
What y’all think about this one this is the guy just down the road from the farm don’t know the bloodline or epds yet but he is a nice looking bull in my opinion
I find him to be a little course in the shoulder, long of leg shallow of body and not enough hair to put on black cows as you are doing. I don’t know why but slick haired Charolais bulls on black cows just doesn’t produce as many true smoky calves as bulls with hair. I am only going by the photo.
This is the type of bull I prefer. One of them may be a little rough in the shoulders too, time will tell.ACC7DAB3-33B7-4F1C-B412-DC1A2A4AD04B.jpeg24103370-D6AD-439A-AA8C-EDF9A27A082A.jpeg
 
OP
C

Cress27

Well-known member
Joined
May 28, 2019
Messages
102
Reaction score
9
Location
Eubank, ky
I find him to be a little course in the shoulder, long of leg shallow of body and not enough hair to put on black cows as you are doing. I don’t know why but slick haired Charolais bulls on black cows just doesn’t produce as many true smoky calves as bulls with hair. I am only going by the photo.
This is the type of bull I prefer. One of them may be a little rough in the shoulders too, time will tell.View attachment 1928View attachment 1929
picture was took in the summer. And I’m not sure but kinda looks like they might have cut his hair and planed on maybe showing him idk. That might be just the way he is. I’m not sure on his calving ease or any of his epds but she is a AI bred bull
 
Top