Scur Heritability

[dcara]

Had previously selected this guy as a future herd sire because he genetically tested in the top 5% for Feed efficency. But as you can see he is scurd (sp). This will drop him, to a catagory 2 but if he sires non-scurd RAs then they can still be cat 1A's. He is out of a registered RA bull and cow, neither of which have ever produced a scurd animal, or come from any animal that had exhibited this as far as I know. Id like to improve FE in my herd. Anyone know the heritability of a scurd bull? What are your thoughts

 

[deenranch]

I'm not trying to be mean or disrespectful by saying this. I think his scurs are the least of your worries. He lacks a lot if you are using him in a purebred herd.

 

[Putangitangi]

Bulls only need one copy of the scurred allele to be physically scurred, so he'll pass that on to half his progeny. Half his sons will have them (on average) and none of his daughters, unless their mothers carry the gene too and then the math gets complicated depending on whether or not the dams actually have them, or just carry the gene, since heifers need two copies to express them.

But doesn't an animal have to be heterozygous polled/horned to have scurs if it carries that gene as well? I understood that a homozygous polled bull would be smooth polled, even if he did carry the scur gene. My own breeding would suggest that, with a scurred heifer amongst them, sired by a smooth-polled purebred Angus bull. Scurs are extremely interesting!

 

[kenny thomas]

How can a registered Red Angus have a horn or scur? I didnt realize that was possible. I actually dont thing it is. Someone prove me wrong and teach me something new.

 

[denvermartinfarms]

My honest thoughts are, scurs or no scurs, he hasn't a bright future.

 

[dun]

How can a registered Red Angus have a horn or scur? I didnt realize that was possible. I actually dont thing it is. Someone prove me wrong and teach me something new.

It's possible but very unlikely that a RA bull could carry the scur gene and for that matter the horned gene. RA can be bred up from non-pure angus cattle. Takes a lot of generations but there is always the possibility that those genes hid away for years coming ferom the original animals that it was bred up from. That would be a clasification of 1B, over 87% angus. 1A are pure angus breeding.

 

[kenny thomas]

Dun, so in Red Angus % cattle can be registered. I did not realize that. I knew it happened in a lot of breeds but I did not know you could in Angus either black or red.

 

[dun]

Dun, so in Red Angus % cattle can be registered. I did not realize that. I knew it happened in a lot of breeds but I did not know you could in Angus either black or red.

You can;t with black but the RA association allows it. Almost all of our 1B cattle go back to Signal and Abricot.

 

[kenny thomas]

I learn something new every day. Thanks Dun

 

[dun]

I learn something new every day. Thanks Dun

Unless you're breeding RA seed stock there is no reason for someone to know about it. It's the same process that continentals have done to create purebred vs fullbred cattle.

 

[kenny thomas]

I knew that about the others but somehow I had just never thought about it in Red Angus or really any of the British breeds. Somehow I just think of them as fullblood.

 

[dun]

I knew that about the others but somehow I had just never thought about it in Red Angus or really any of the British breeds. Somehow I just think of them as fullblood.

I think shorthorn is the only other british breed that allows breeding up. Not sure how shorthorn works (percentage wise) but in the reg number an asterisk means something else is in the woodpile.

 

[redcowsrule33]

You have (3) potential scenarios with this calf:

1) Since the scur gene is recessive in females and dominant in males, assuming the sire and dam are homozygous polled (as they should be if they are 1A Red Angus, possible to be hetero in 1B), the scur gene came from the dam as she can be a silent carrier while the sire cannot.

2) The sire was scurred and they were removed, and someone was less than honest.

3) The calf has a different sire than you think he does.

That said, I would do a parentage test on this bull (very cheap though RAAA) if you are planning on using this bull for a sire. If you are planning on using him for 1A seedstock production, please reconsider. I know genomically he is what you are after, but you have to look at the rest of him too. Maybe his picture doesn't do him justice and maybe I have a heavier bias against scurs vs. ineligible white, and before Doc jumps on his single trait selection soapbox, if he were mine he would be cut for those scurs.

What are your calf's bloodlines?

Edit: there are thoughts that that are more than one set of genes that result in scurs which could complicate things further, but to my knowledge those genes and their inheritance have not been yet sorted out. Perhaps Randi will chime in on this thread.

 

[Taurus]

1) Since the scur gene is recessive in females and dominant in males, assuming the sire and dam are homozygous polled (as they should be if they are 1A Red Angus, possible to be hetero in 1B), the scur gene came from the dam as she can be a silent carrier while the sire cannot.

2) The sire was scurred and they were removed, and someone was less than honest.

3) The calf has a different sire than you think he does.

I would choose number #3. I don't think I ever seen a scurred red angus bull at seedstock or commercial operations and I've been to many registered red angus farms.

That said, I don't think he is a good bull judging from the picture and I've seen better ones than him.

 

[dcara]

Thanks folks

I don't think his phenotype is to great either. He certainly wouldn't win any shows on confirmation. But I gave him some consideration since he came up on really poor pastures with no feed and still did better than his contemporaries. He's 10 months in the pic. I'm interested in FE since I retain ownership at the feed lot. The dam is moderate size and a heavy milker too. I wouldn't mind having more like her. After checking I realized an error in my records. The dam is not actually registered. The bull is registered out of the Logan line. So she is most likely the carrier. By time he is breeding age I should be ready for a terminal load lot. We'll see.

 

[Taurus]

Thanks folks

I don't think his phenotype is to great either. He certainly wouldn't win any shows on confirmation. But I gave him some consideration since he came up on really poor pastures with no feed and still did better than his contemporaries. He's 10 months in the pic. I'm interested in FE since I retain ownership at the feed lot. The dam is moderate size and a heavy milker too. I wouldn't mind having more like her. After checking I realized an error in my records. The dam is not actually registered. The bull is registered out of the Logan line. So she is most likely the carrier. By time he is breeding age I should be ready for a terminal load lot. We'll see.

I would think his sire is most likely the carrier as well.

 

[Putangitangi]

Thanks folks

I don't think his phenotype is to great either. He certainly wouldn't win any shows on confirmation. But I gave him some consideration since he came up on really poor pastures with no feed and still did better than his contemporaries. He's 10 months in the pic. I'm interested in FE since I retain ownership at the feed lot. The dam is moderate size and a heavy milker too. I wouldn't mind having more like her. After checking I realized an error in my records. The dam is not actually registered. The bull is registered out of the Logan line. So she is most likely the carrier. By time he is breeding age I should be ready for a terminal load lot. We'll see.

I would think his sire is most likely the carrier as well.

Why? He only needs it from one of his parents.

 

[Lucky_P]

If he's got scurs, he also carries one copy of the horn gene - he's heterozygous polled.
http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/ScurredTable.html

 

[Lucky_P]

If he's got scurs, he also carries one copy of the horn gene - he's heterozygous polled.
http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/ScurredTable.html[/quote]

Have not used a horned bull here since 1989 - but the horn gene (and the scur gene) is hitch-hiking along in some of my cows. Have had one scurred calf born here since we went to Angus bulls in 2006 - but it wouldn't surprise me at all to have a horned or scurred calf pop up, since some of the Shorthorn sires we've used recently are not homo polled.

 

[Putangitangi]

If he's got scurs, he also carries one copy of the horn gene - he's heterozygous polled.
http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/ScurredTable.html

So there could be any number of scur-carrying pedigree Angus bulls! It was that table I couldn't find when I mentioned my bull earlier. He must have carried scurs since his daughter has them. (She had a horned grandmother.)