Scrotal Circumference

[Oubuffel]

I like to see normal shape/placement which includes seeing the tail of the epididymis. Usually if they look normal and you can see that, they will be towards the top of the normal range of size. Sheath angle matters a lot also, and rear legs.

I agree, but what exactly did you mean by rear legs?

 

[Oubuffel]

So what do you consider to large?
I think we used to test yearling bulls that measured 32cm, but more often than not they ended up on the "shows potential, retest in sixty days list"
Overly fat bulls defiantly have more trouble cooling down their testicles.
The environment that bulls winter in is more important than testicle size when it comes to freezing. Our bulls spend the winter on a deep pack mound of corn stalks. The composting stalks create heat. Steam raises when the bulls stand up in the winter.
I've also seen bulls freeze their nuts to a bare concrete floor.

Very interesting SBMF. It must be quite a bummer for the bull - being caught up in such a predicament. What does one do in such a situation I wonder? Perhaps fetch a bucket of warm water? Ever witnessed any issues with regards to fertility subsequently?

You started off by asking "So what do you consider to large?". I believe that everybody's input so far, has touched on many interesting matters, regarding SC, but two questions still remain to be answered... What is too large when it comes to an adults bull's SC and why? I have a sneaking suspicion that an SC should in fact not be too large and that bigger isn't necessarily always better. I would also tend to agree with FungusProudK when he said that "moderation is always hard to beat", but let's wait and see where this thread leads us.

 

[SBMF 2015]

It must be quite a bummer for the bull - being caught up in such a predicament. What does one do in such a situation I wonder?

Not much to do in the moment. The bull stood up and the outside layers of skin stayed with the concrete floor. His testicles were froze and I don't think he pasted his BSE in the spring.

We usually keep 8-12bulls around depending on the time of year. We don't keep them past 6years old. I don't know if we have ever had one measure over 52cm. Most are mid to high 40's.

 

[FungusProudKY31]

Would SC/CWT be a better measure if minimums were still followed?

Bull breeding a cow every 7 minutes would be 72 cows in an 8 hour shift. That would be a bull to see. Leave him in all day and over 200 cows per day.

 

[okiek]

I was pretty worried about the BSE this year due to the extreme cold roughly 60 days ago. It caught me more off guard than it should have and I had no real bedding down. However, this was yesterday's results. SC was 43, >90% normal morphology, and M4 concentration. My vet does almost nothing but cattle to include the largest bucking bull string in the state of OK. He sees a LOT of bulls so I trust him completely. I didn't pretend to fully understand the M4 rating so I asked about it. He explained and said basically my bull maxed out everything and is as good as it gets. I don't know what the potential is for this bull to go over 50CM in the future but he was 25 months old 3 days ago.

 

[Nkline]

I agree, but what exactly did you mean by rear legs?

Just general correctness, not overly straight. No swelling in the joints, and they should move well.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Here's a good article: https://www.beefmagazine.com/mag/beef_size_matter
Cornell Univ used to run a bull test and I was part of the committee. Yearling bulls had to have a 32cm to pass. As Boot Jack said, Limo's had smaller SC - so the Limo rep talked everyone into changing the minimum requirement for Limo's to 30cm. To me, that was a misjustice to the breed. Glad to hear they have turned it around.
Like all animals - we sure can ruin a good thing with over-feeding. Same is true with the fertility of a bull.

 

[SBMF 2015]

Would SC/CWT be a better measure if minimums were still followed?

Bull breeding a cow every 7 minutes would be 72 cows in an 8 hour shift. That would be a bull to see. Leave him in all day and over 200 cows per day.

Hahaha he would literally screw himself to death. Like a lot of things; just because he could, he shouldn't.
In a pasture setting, if you can get 40 cows to sink up and that bull settles all 40 cows in four days. You'd be pretty happy.
This is why good bulls with high libido looses weight during breeding season. They are to busy working to eat.

 

[Oubuffel]

Just general correctness, not overly straight. No swelling in the joints, and they should move well.

Interesting. Have you ever come across a bull with substandard rear legs?

 

[Nkline]

Interesting. Have you ever come across a bull with substandard rear legs?

Yep, I've even seen them at the bull stud.

 

[Oubuffel]

Yep, I've even seen them at the bull stud.

Which problems have you come across most often - not overly straight, swelling of the joints, poor movement?

 

[Nkline]

Which problems have you come across most often - not overly straight, swelling of the joints, poor movement?

Overly straight rear legs. That usually turns into swollen joints, and poor movement.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Interesting. Have you ever come across a bull with substandard rear legs?

There are MANY bulls out there - even lots in stud books - with bad feet & legs. As far as home grown bulls, yes, there are lots of them for sure. Many people do not have clue what to look for in structure. They have this bouncing baby bull and he's beautiful (in their eye). Called "barn blind".

 

[Oubuffel]

There are MANY bulls out there - even lots in stud books - with bad feet & legs. As far as home grown bulls, yes, there are lots of them for sure. Many people do not have clue what to look for in structure. They have this bouncing baby bull and he's beautiful (in their eye). Called "barn blind".

I agree. I've seen folks pay huge amounts of money for supposedly top bulls with obvious abnormalities. Clearly the buyers often fail to notice or like you said, simply do not have a clue what to look out for. I was hoping to start a discussion which should also lead and perhaps slightly touch onto this matter in a new thread I've posted a few days ago, titled "Linebreeding", but no-one seems to be interested in joining in. Perhaps too much of a touchy subject?

 

[kenny thomas]

Would SC/CWT be a better measure if minimums were still followed?

Bull breeding a cow every 7 minutes would be 72 cows in an 8 hour shift. That would be a bull to see. Leave him in all day and over 200 cows per day.

But yet the big nane bulls are only collected on average 4 times a week.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

I use "big name" bulls ALL the time. Yes, even "hot new bulls", will be tested. I have to stay on the edge of "current" for my sales. But, I know a lot of people all over USA and I pick their brain (eyes) as to the structure of the actual bull and his offspring. New young bulls don't have offspring, but I rely on the sire and proven dam if it's a pedigree I've used.