SAF Directive

[KMacGinley]

Any body else use this bull? Got two of the gangliest, biggest calves I ever had from this guy. Supposed to be a heifer bull calves were big, with definetely non angus looking heads. Any others out there?

 

[Brandonm2]

According to this you were just unlucky......
http://agonline.com/angus4u/epd.asp?ID=711

They got him as moderate on birth weight and with a high accuracy too.

 

[KMacGinley]

With one calf, I would agree, with two looking the same, I don't think so. Both calves are growers, but I am glad they are out of cows not heifers. Neither of them has much muscle to them.

 

[Brandonm2]

With one calf, I would agree, with two looking the same, I don't think so. Both calves are growers, but I am glad they are out of cows not heifers. Neither of them has much muscle to them.

The data clearly makes him look both good and a SAFE bet on heifers or anything else. I am inclined too believe the data over two calves.....unless they were MY TWO CALVES! I probably wouldn't ever use him again particularly if those two dams are a common cow family on your farm. Some pairings just don't work well together.

 

[BA]

His sire, Millcreek Diversity is a -2 CE +5.0 BW EPD. A true calving ease sire would not be out of such a bull. It is easy to see where he would throw some big birthweight cattle. Most may be small, but a suprise big bw wouldn't really be a suprise out of the bull.

 

[KMacGinley]

With one calf, I would agree, with two looking the same, I don't think so. Both calves are growers, but I am glad they are out of cows not heifers. Neither of them has much muscle to them.

The data clearly makes him look both good and a SAFE bet on heifers or anything else. I am inclined too believe the data over two calves.....unless they were MY TWO CALVES! I probably wouldn't ever use him again particularly if those two dams are a common cow family on your farm. Some pairings just don't work well together.

That's just it, if the two cows were related then I would blame the cow line, but they aren't. His bw epd has steadily moved upwards, and His sire did the same thing. The frame on these calves as newborns is pretty astounding.

 

[dun]

I'm inclined to agree with BA. With those kinds of problems sitting just one generation back I've alwasy looked at it as a train wreck waiting to happen.
Now before someone jumps on the "EPDs are a bunch of crap bandwagon", when you look back 3-5 generations and find no extremes, it's a pretty good bet that htey have some meaning. While interim and pedigree EPDs are pretty much just an average of the parents, rarely do they end up as an average. Generally they tend towards one side or the other. Maybe not as extreme, but still not close to an average either. If looked at on a bell curve, the higher the accuracy the more things will fall into the bell part, but there is still a good portion that is outside of the curve, probably aorund 20-30%. That's why even with .99 accuracy you will still get those surprises occasionally.

dun

 

[Aero]

His sire, Millcreek Diversity is a -2 CE +5.0 BW EPD. A true calving ease sire would not be out of such a bull. It is easy to see where he would throw some big birthweight cattle. Most may be small, but a suprise big bw wouldn't really be a suprise out of the bull.

now Brian:
you know what the research says about variation based on parental differences... (no correlation)

 

[Brandonm2]

With one calf, I would agree, with two looking the same, I don't think so. Both calves are growers, but I am glad they are out of cows not heifers. Neither of them has much muscle to them.

The data clearly makes him look both good and a SAFE bet on heifers or anything else. I am inclined too believe the data over two calves.....unless they were MY TWO CALVES! I probably wouldn't ever use him again particularly if those two dams are a common cow family on your farm. Some pairings just don't work well together.

That's just it, if the two cows were related then I would blame the cow line, but they aren't. His bw epd has steadily moved upwards, and His sire did the same thing. The frame on these calves as newborns is pretty astounding.

At 92% accuracy I don't think you are going to see much more movement in the birth weight number. Always remember with EPDs we are talking strictly about AVERAGES. Nobody is tracking (publicly at least) consistency. You can be all over the board and still have a good average.

 

[Brandonm2]

I'm inclined to agree with BA. With those kinds of problems sitting just one generation back I've alwasy looked at it as a train wreck waiting to happen.
Now before someone jumps on the "EPDs are a bunch of crap bandwagon", when you look back 3-5 generations and find no extremes, it's a pretty good bet that htey have some meaning. While interim and pedigree EPDs are pretty much just an average of the parents, rarely do they end up as an average. Generally they tend towards one side or the other. Maybe not as extreme, but still not close to an average either. If looked at on a bell curve, the higher the accuracy the more things will fall into the bell part, but there is still a good portion that is outside of the curve, probably aorund 20-30%. That's why even with .99 accuracy you will still get those surprises occasionally.

dun

Yes, and sometimes things can jump all over the place from one generation to the next. Take the Hereford Bull: Remitall Keynote 20X. He is a trait leader for Milk EPD at +23. That puts him in the top ~5% of the breed. His sire however was one of the worst trainwrecks for milk ever. Remitall Teamster 9T was in the bottom 1% of the breed at an absurd -17. That is a bizarre 40 lb spread between father and son (@77 and 88% accuracy respectively). Go back another generation to his sire, Remitall Limelight 40L and he has a horrible -4 Milk Epd; although his sire, the popular Enforcer 107H was one of the better milking sires of that era at +17. The ability to produce heavy milking daughters actually skipped two generations!!, (although Enforcer also appears prominently in Keynote's dam's pedigree). If the pedigree is accurate, I have no explanation other than too wonder at the complexity of God's creation.

 

[Oldtimer]

While Directive does not fit into my frame size for bulls (little too tall) and I would probably never use him anyway because of that, let alone for heifers-- the ranch that co-owns him (Big Dry Angus) is near me and have used him on heifers with good results...And they pasture calve...

They also have a great following of Missouri breaks and open country ranchers that have used their bloodlines for years- apparently again quite successfully as shows up at their bull sales...These are definitely not show cattle- they're bred to perform in rough country- and the feedlot...

They also just sold their cull steer/heifer calves that they didn't keep for bulls or replacements on Superior Video for a pretty fair price...Semi load of 500 lb calves at $1.44 (both steers and heifers) for Oct. 1 delivery....So apparently some buyers must like them....

http://www.superiorlivestock.com/CatShort.sla?1=1

 

[KMacGinley]

These two calves are growing like weeds and calved big, but unassisted, I am just glad I didn't throw him into heifers like I intended. He was lauded as a heifer bull when I bought the semen, I kinda like my heifer bulls to have a little more limited bell curve.

The two calves are the most un-angus like calves that I have ever seen. Muley ears, sticking straight out the side of their heads. Very, Very framey. Growing well though, I believe that they will be cut.

 

[la4angus]

Growing well though, I believe that they will be cut.

That seems like the thing to do with them.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Brandon -

If the pedigree is accurate, I have no explanation other than too wonder at the complexity of God's creation.

As you have said - EPD's are about "Averages", and when one is dealing with the incredible number of Genes concerned with ANY trait it is more complicated than Algebraic Exponential Powers, regardless of the percent of accuracy. If this were not so, given the tremendous number of generations since the beginning of time, every species would look and perform exactly the same as any other member of that species, including human beings! Can you imagine how horrible THAT would be! Just imagine - everyone in the world would look like your 7th grade History teacher!

Diversity is dominant, in spite of Homozygosity! That is the precise reason we must UNDERSTAND EPD's and Selection methods and technics in order to minimize negative responses and undesirable results.

DOC HARRIS

 

[SEC]

I agree with BA, the Diversity bull was all over the map, he has calving ease bred into him, except TC Stockman on the bottom side and my research of the pedigree tells me that is where it comes from.