Ring the Bell

[Spot & Bubby]

That's why the great cow is hard to recreate through sons.

Rookie question: Do you mean that between a heifer and a bull from the same exceptional dam, the heifer is more likely to produce a heifer of equal quality to her dam than the bull is?

If so, would that be because (assuming an adequate sire) the heifer is adjacent to the dam, therefore (theoretically) already an improved version of the dam? Where the bull's heifer offspring would be a generation removed from his dam rather than adjacent?

 

[Travlr]

Rookie question: Do you mean that between a heifer and a bull from the same exceptional dam, the heifer is more likely to produce a heifer of equal quality to her dam than the bull is?

If so, would that be because (assuming an adequate sire) the heifer is adjacent to the dam, therefore (theoretically) already an improved version of the dam? Where the bull's heifer offspring would be a generation removed from his dam rather than adjacent?

That's really not a rookie question at all. I think that's a decent way of describing it.

I don't remember the exact figure, but I know there are over a billion different combinations in how cattle DNA can be combined with any two unrelated individuals contributing.

 

[blackladies]

Okay... so are there people here that don't know?
I look at one guys cows and wonder why he bothers... and another guys cows and wish I had some of them. And I look at the results in the sale ring and wonder why the one guy isn't trying to learn from the other guy.
It's great to buy a good bull and get good calves from it regardless of the cows you have, but the bull is only half of the genetics. Is it hard for people to choose better animals?
Sorry if I thought there would be some use to this thread.

This is a red angus cow. I used this image because it's easier to see the strengths and flaws in an image of a red cow. If people don't know what her strengths and flaws are and how they translate to more dollars, then wouldn't they like to learn? The difference between a successful operation and a hobby farm may be the difference between someone being able to pick good stock and not.

As long as that red cow gets bred to a homo black bull.

 

[Spot & Bubby]

Does a bull really contribute 1/2 of the genetics of the calf? What about those one that "really stamp their calves"??? If 3/4 of the calves phenotype comes from the bull, does it make more sense to go with more inexpensive cows??

What I have learned here (correctly, I hope) is that you always want the better cow and "the best bull you can afford." Calves from lesser dams and superior bulls will show greater improvements sooner than from the greater dam because improvement is more obvious.

Metaphorically, if cows were pizza and bulls were cheese (hear me out...) adding cheese to a crust-and-sauce pizza is an obvious improvement, but still only a basic pizza. Adding cheese to a cheese pizza isn't an obvious improvement, but it increases the value, sometimes significantly. Right?

I'm sure someone will correct me if I've got it wrong. At least I hope so!

 

[Spot & Bubby]

Yes, If you retain your own replacements over a period of years.. your bull selections will be the overall majority of your herds genetics

Yes, it makes more sense to buy less expensive (as in lesser quality) cows if you are retaining heifers for several generations? Does that account for the season prior to the heifers' first breeding?

 

[Lucky]

You look at the sale sheet the day after you sell to see were you are at and were you want to be.

 

[Spot & Bubby]

How can someone setting at the sale tell what the profit is in a group of cattle going thru the ring? I have heard some strange things over the years but that takes the cake!

With all due respect, I think you are hung up on the word "profit," which is absent from the original question. Even if the highest quality cows were as obvious as being purple or green, there are a million different reasons you could take a loss on one, even if you bought her for a buck, and none of them at fault of the cow or her performance.

 

[Spot & Bubby]

Anywhere in any market there are people that can make a buck on other peoples oversights and failures.

Or hard times.

 

[StrojanHerefords]

Rookie question: Do you mean that between a heifer and a bull from the same exceptional dam, the heifer is more likely to produce a heifer of equal quality to her dam than the bull is?

If so, would that be because (assuming an adequate sire) the heifer is adjacent to the dam, therefore (theoretically) already an improved version of the dam? Where the bull's heifer offspring would be a generation removed from his dam rather than adjacent?

It is perspective, an average herd has a bull to 25 cows. That means that an average herd bull would be as good as the top cows.

 

[StrojanHerefords]

Yes, it makes more sense to buy less expensive (as in lesser quality) cows if you are retaining heifers for several generations? Does that account for the season prior to the heifers' first breeding?

What do you mean by "quality" or "good" when it comes to cows? I have learnt that an animal that works in one environment doesn't work in another. I now prefer to buy bunches of cows and find diamonds in the rough rather than buy a single expensive bull.

 

[MurraysMutts]

What I have learned here (correctly, I hope) is that you always want the better cow and "the best bull you can afford." Calves from lesser dams and superior bulls will show greater improvements sooner than from the greater dam because improvement is more obvious.

Metaphorically, if cows were pizza and bulls were cheese (hear me out...) adding cheese to a crust-and-sauce pizza is an obvious improvement, but still only a basic pizza. Adding cheese to a cheese pizza isn't an obvious improvement, but it increases the value, sometimes significantly. Right?

I'm sure someone will correct me if I've got it wrong. At least I hope so!

3 am here and I'm in the fridge wanting cheese now. Thanks for that!!


I've got 24 head of these "inferior low quality cattle" selling today. My plan was for them to pay for my 6 Big fine red baldy cows! And the bull too. We will see.
Hairbrained idea, but these lower quality trader cows/calves are the ones paying the bills while I can accumulate some "good" cows without have a 3 year loan on the damn things!

I've done a couple threads about making money with these lesser quality animals. Kinda wish I'd a done a thread about this project too. It's been a LOT of work to get to this point. But hopefully the end result is me having some very nice animals that are paid for in one year.

 

[wbvs58]

It used to be if you went into a henhouse the most productive layers were the ones looking the scrawniest and scruffiest. If you went into a milking shed the best productive cows were the ones that stood out from their lack of condition. I have a couple of very good productive cows that raise the best calves, have very good fertility but are certainly not the pick of the herd. I keep daughters from these cows
Fortunately I don't buy cows but if I was to be buying top shelf cows I think I would have to be prepared to drop a few of them due to poor performance.
From my observations my most fertile cows are the hard workers I described. If I have a cow slow to breed back it is invariably a really nice looking young cow in pretty good condition

Ken

 

[mwj]

With all due respect, I think you are hung up on the word "profit," which is absent from the original question. Even if the highest quality cows were as obvious as being purple or green, there are a million different reasons you could take a loss on one, even if you bought her for a buck, and none of them at fault of the cow or her performance.

Go back and read the original post. It is all about profit from different types of cows.

 

[Ebenezer]

Rookie question: Do you mean that between a heifer and a bull from the same exceptional dam, the heifer is more likely to produce a heifer of equal quality to her dam than the bull is?

If so, would that be because (assuming an adequate sire) the heifer is adjacent to the dam, therefore (theoretically) already an improved version of the dam? Where the bull's heifer offspring would be a generation removed from his dam rather than adjacent?

Mitochondrial DNA is passed to females from the mother. The sons never get it.

 

[Louthelivestockguy]

Okay... so are there people here that don't know?
I look at one guys cows and wonder why he bothers... and another guys cows and wish I had some of them. And I look at the results in the sale ring and wonder why the one guy isn't trying to learn from the other guy.
It's great to buy a good bull and get good calves from it regardless of the cows you have, but the bull is only half of the genetics. Is it hard for people to choose better animals?
Sorry if I thought there would be some use to this thread.

This is a red angus cow. I used this image because it's easier to see the strengths and flaws in an image of a red cow. If people don't know what her strengths and flaws are and how they translate to more dollars, then wouldn't they like to learn? The difference between a successful operation and a hobby farm may be the difference between someone being able to pick good stock and not.

I think appearances of cows is what 95% of us use to judge a cow worthy or not.
And appearance can change depending on environment and quality of feed.
I look for only solid black or solid white cows personally. I like middle of the road on frame and length of legs.
I check their bag if buying at stockyards.
If the have a bag, I stay away because she likely lost her calf and that's why they were dumped off!
You can't see their teeth in the ring, but broken mouths won't last long so I prefer 5-7 year olds too!
The big question mark that no one can guess well is their temperament. I will always cull any animal if it's aggressive and have bought and turned around quickly and sold some due to bad temperament. No animal is worth losing your quality of life.

 

[Spot & Bubby]

It is perspective, an average herd has a bull to 25 cows. That means that an average herd bull would be as good as the top cows.

3 am here and I'm in the fridge wanting cheese now. Thanks for that!!


I've got 24 head of these "inferior low quality cattle" selling today. My plan was for them to pay for my 6 Big fine red baldy cows! And the bull too. We will see.
Hairbrained idea, but these lower quality trader cows/calves are the ones paying the bills while I can accumulate some "good" cows without have a 3 year loan on the damn things!

I've done a couple threads about making money with these lesser quality animals. Kinda wish I'd a done a thread about this project too. It's been a LOT of work to get to this point. But hopefully the end result is me having some very nice animals that are paid for in one year.

I bought some "fancy" aka "expensive" cheese the other day... 3 pepper colby jack. One of those peppers is apparently the ghost variety. It will set off an alarm!

Good luck at the sale. Let me know how it goes.

 

[Travlr]

It used to be if you went into a henhouse the most productive layers were the ones looking the scrawniest and scruffiest. If you went into a milking shed the best productive cows were the ones that stood out from their lack of condition. I have a couple of very good productive cows that raise the best calves, have very good fertility but are certainly not the pick of the herd. I keep daughters from these cows
Fortunately I don't buy cows but if I was to be buying top shelf cows I think I would have to be prepared to drop a few of them due to poor performance.
From my observations my most fertile cows are the hard workers I described. If I have a cow slow to breed back it is invariably a really nice looking young cow in pretty good condition

Ken

I think there's a basic misunderstanding here. This thread is asking what is a top shelf cow? And instead of everyone offering opinions on what makes a good cow, they are thinking you have to spend big money to get the best cows.

But you said it in the above post, "I have a couple of very good productive cows that raise the best calves, have very good fertility but are certainly not the pick of the herd. I keep daughters from these cows."

I think the difference between the average cow running through an auction or being bought privately... and a better cow... might be five cents a pound (more or less). Is a nickel extra to buy a better cow big money? I think the better cow pays for itself by producing better calves. So your "certainly not the pick of the herd" ARE the good cows and the ones that don't raise as good a calf but have more eye appeal (to you) aren't the good cows.

So what makes a good cow? It can't only be what they look like. But how do you pick out the top producers from the rest?

 

[gcreekrch]

When you buy cattle you are playing with odds to a certain extent. Better classes of cattle have better odds of being profitable. There are always exceptions but if you want to get or stay profitable you need to keep the odds in your favour

I disagree with this statement. I have made best money trading rough cattle bought cheaply than the top end.

 

[mwj]

Now what can be told other than looks and disposition. Maybe with good ears you could detect labored or bad breathing. How long do you presume to observe in the sale ring?. Most that I am aware of do not give you much time to evaluate a long list of criteria.

 

[Travlr]

I disagree with this statement. I have made best money trading rough cattle bought cheaply than the top end.

Is it because the rough cattle gain more weight leading to resale? Or because they produce better calves for less inputs? Are you talking about animals bought to put weight on and sell, or those added to the herd to produce calves?