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Rhetorical

dun

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I've heard people say about a bull, "He's not a real good bull but he's good enough".
When does a bull with obvious faults/problems become "good enough"?
This kind of goes hand in hand with my view that at least 50-75% of the bulls that are registered should have been cut and a large percentage of females are retained that would have been better utilized in the freezer.
 

Keren

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I will admit - a bull who has obvious faults that I wouldnt normally use - ie structural/leg faults - becomes 'good enough' if it is getting late in the season, for several reasons I cannot put a better bull out with the girls, it becomes a matter of just getting them bred or carrying the cows empty for a year, I will choose to breed to the inferior bull, and earmark all the calves as terminal.

Now it hasnt happened very often, but it has happened once or twice, when my original male was injured or keeled over, or other family circumstances prevented me from purchasing a better male on time for the breeding season.

Even if that bull is cow hocked and knock kneed with a sway back and loose sheath, if his price tag matches his quality, I'd rather use him for the year and earmark him and all the calves to be slaughtered, than carry my females empty.

dun":1zwr4qny said:
This kind of goes hand in hand with my view that at least 50-75% of the bulls that are registered should have been cut and a large percentage of females are retained that would have been better utilized in the freezer.

Agree entirely
 

KNERSIE

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An inferior bull is only good enough untill you've seen what difference a superior bull can make to a single calf crop, then the difference in price between a herd sire and just a bull become insignificant.
 

BARNSCOOP

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I understand Keren's statements. I was almost in that position this year when the well chosen bull I purchased failed his first BSE and then again, a second time, 60 days later. I took those days to try and find a replacement before his second test and, lucky for me, I found a good bull and purchased him right after the first bull failed the second time. However it could have turned the other way and I would have done what Keren has done before and breed to a lesser animal but made sure they all went terminal.
I can't afford for my cows to stay open a season. A lesser grade calf is better than no calf at all.

It is a matter of responsibility. You could use a lesser bull but be responsible enough to make sure that breeding never gets out, all the while striving to do as Dun and Kernsie and keep a good bull.

I also agree with Dun on the % of cattle that truly need to be terminal. I think the poplularity of certian breeds has caused breeders to give on their selection do to the ability to sell everything the can raise. The Love of money is the root of all evil.
 

alacattleman

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dun":3mkq23ea said:
I've heard people say about a bull, "He's not a real good bull but he's good enough".
When does a bull with obvious faults/problems become "good enough"?
This kind of goes hand in hand with my view that at least 50-75% of the bulls that are registered should have been cut and a large percentage of females are retained that would have been better utilized in the freezer.
here's the root of that kind of thinking .>>>>>> $$$$$$$$$$<<<<<<
 

TexasBred

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alacattleman":21qbfiga said:
dun":21qbfiga said:
I've heard people say about a bull, "He's not a real good bull but he's good enough".
When does a bull with obvious faults/problems become "good enough"?
This kind of goes hand in hand with my view that at least 50-75% of the bulls that are registered should have been cut and a large percentage of females are retained that would have been better utilized in the freezer.
here's the root of that kind of thinking .>>>>>> $$$$$$$$$$<<<<<<

Bammy...I know guys who buy based on price only. Don't know diddly about cows or bulls but figure if it's expensive it must be good so they jump on the bandwagon. They get cleaned out regularly and have nothing but sorry cattle to show for it...Sad thing is that they don't now how worthless the calves are til they sell them then they raise hel with the sale barn.
 

dun

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TexasBred":1knnttil said:
alacattleman":1knnttil said:
dun":1knnttil said:
I've heard people say about a bull, "He's not a real good bull but he's good enough".
When does a bull with obvious faults/problems become "good enough"?
This kind of goes hand in hand with my view that at least 50-75% of the bulls that are registered should have been cut and a large percentage of females are retained that would have been better utilized in the freezer.
here's the root of that kind of thinking .>>>>>> $$$$$$$$$$<<<<<<

Bammy...I know guys who buy based on price only. Don't know diddly about cows or bulls but figure if it's expensive it must be good so they jump on the bandwagon. They get cleaned out regularly and have nothing but sorry cattle to show for it...Sad thing is that they don't now how worthless the calves are til they sell them then they raise hel with the sale barn.

If they can;t/won;t learn they get pretty much what they deserve.
 

Jeanne - Simme Valley

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Sorry to say, but there a lots of breeders that think "if they are registered, they are breeders".
Besides, if they don't castrate, they're missing out on a GREAT MEAL!! :lol: :lol:
 

dun

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Jeanne - Simme Valley":ps63rbtw said:
Sorry to say, but there a lots of breeders that think "if they are registered, they are breeders".
Besides, if they don't castrate, they're missing out on a GREAT MEAL!! :lol: :lol:

And sadly some will register everything that is possible to be registered
 

jcarkie

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alot of the guys i know will not pay more than a thousand for a bull so they settle for junk. i try to go middle of the road, a guy said to me the other day man bulls are high i can't pay that much. and some go to the sale barn to buy one. the bull is half the genetics in your herd and the future replacements heifers. you can't afford to just settle
 

3waycross

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Personally I'd just like to congratulate Dun for being able to spell Rhetorical.

As far as the bull issure goes, to me the only thing that makes an otherwise sorry bull acceptable is desperation.
 

dun

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3waycross":2bqyak2e said:
Personally I'd just like to congratulate Dun for being able to spell Rhetorical.

As far as the bull issure goes, to me the only thing that makes an otherwise sorry bull acceptable is desperation.

That's pretty much Kerens point. We don;t live in a very bull rich area but I've managed to find some that were reasonably priced (in my mind). When we bought Pauncho I had looked all over the state and couldn;t find anything that I felt was either good enough or was at least priced at his value. Finally checked with a neighbor that I have been referring peopel to for years and bought Pauncho from him. Haven;t been disappointed yet
 

ANAZAZI

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KNERSIE":13mt4sla said:
An inferior bull is only good enough untill you've seen what difference a superior bull can make to a single calf crop, then the difference in price between a herd sire and just a bull become insignificant.

This is why I keep more than one bull in my small herd; if something happens to the best one, the cleanup bull goes in.

Also I thought about what to do if I must take a bull with bad phenotype. It would be a terminal sire with growth and muscle, so I can sell the calves no matter how ugly their legs or back are. Heck I might even use a charolais bull rather than have open cows!
 

grannysoo

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dun":txc2lxhx said:
Jeanne - Simme Valley":txc2lxhx said:
Sorry to say, but there a lots of breeders that think "if they are registered, they are breeders".
Besides, if they don't castrate, they're missing out on a GREAT MEAL!! :lol: :lol:

And sadly some will register everything that is possible to be registered

That's what the people around here with registered herds do. They register every single animal and every single calf that comes along. Regardless of quality, they are all sold as breeding stock to whomever will purchase them.
 

Jeanne - Simme Valley

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I'm afraid I fall into the catagory of registering every calf that lives - but - and here's the big BUT - most all the males are steers. It doesn't cost me anything to register the calf (Total Herd Enrollment) so they all get registered. All the heifers (except freemartins - can't register one until she has produced a calf to prove she is NOT a freemartin). But, I have sent heifers to a feedlot - of course without the papers.
 

novatech

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dun":15yj1qcg said:
I've heard people say about a bull, "He's not a real good bull but he's good enough".
When does a bull with obvious faults/problems become "good enough"?
This kind of goes hand in hand with my view that at least 50-75% of the bulls that are registered should have been cut and a large percentage of females are retained that would have been better utilized in the freezer.
A bull is only good enough when he will make an improvement on what you already have.
Personally I cannot afford the bull I need/desire. I must go with AI. There are others in the same situation. They may have another problem. They do not have the time or facilities,etc to AI.
The biggest problem is breeders selling based on pedigree alone. Worse are the people that buy them. Barn blindness also seems to be a major problem or it could be just a lack of knowledge.
I know of several registered breeders in my area that raise cattle that I would not even have in a commercial herd. All I hear from them is the name dropping as to where they bought their foundation stock from.
I have raised a bull that is good enough for a clean up bull but certainly does not come up to the standards I would like to reach.
 

msscamp

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dun":gu3vqoot said:
When does a bull with obvious faults/problems become "good enough"?

When he can bring something valuable to the existing herd despite his obvious faults/problems.
 

novaman

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msscamp":2ddphabe said:
dun":2ddphabe said:
When does a bull with obvious faults/problems become "good enough"?

When he can bring something valuable to the existing herd despite his obvious faults/problems.
Interesting take on the question. I can see your point but I still believe there are too many options to take a hit in one area in order to improve another.
 

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