Reviving a vintage watering system / field drain

[baldrick]

I couldn't get definite numbers using GIS mapping, but Google Earth shows about 8ft drop over 174ft of known inlet and outlet (and they are about as deep on both ends). I knew there is at least some slope because cows were able to drink from the self-replenishing puddle. The biggest potential issue with any container on the top of the ground would be water freezing solid. No idea on water physics in that case - but I am assuming that once water stops flowing because top of the tank is solid, it will slowly start freezing down and back as far as the ground temp allows. It has worked in the puddle setup, because water was always moving and finding new routes when old ones were getting frozen.

Water looks very clean and it comes from the hill that is at least 1 mile away from any crops, so I don't have any concerns about quality, but maybe I can still have it tested at some point.

Thanks for the link to your setup, I will definitely check it out. From just glancing at it, the overflow in my case would probably have to be turned into an "underflow", with white pipe constantly draining the water, thus preventing or slowing down the freezing process. I yet have to figure out how big my tank should be to slow down freezing - I reckon a smaller diameter tank would have quicker exchange of surface water. Smaller size would have to likely be compensated by perimeter insulation and maybe adding a collar tire or tires to take advantage of solar effect. I have about 17" wide woven defunct pressure tank with some fittings that could maybe be utilised and 17" tire would fit it nicely (and I would probably use several of them finishing at the topn rim and starting maybe even under the ground surface). Some kind of windbreak and at least partial roof would help too.

 

[RDFF]

I couldn't get definite numbers using GIS mapping, but Google Earth shows about 8ft drop over 174ft of known inlet and outlet (and they are about as deep on both ends). I knew there is at least some slope because cows were able to drink from the self-replenishing puddle. The biggest potential issue with any container on the top of the ground would be water freezing solid. No idea on water physics in that case - but I am assuming that once water stops flowing because top of the tank is solid, it will slowly start freezing down and back as far as the ground temp allows. It has worked in the puddle setup, because water was always moving and finding new routes when old ones were getting frozen.

Water looks very clean and it comes from the hill that is at least 1 mile away from any crops, so I don't have any concerns about quality, but maybe I can still have it tested at some point.

Thanks for the link to your setup, I will definitely check it out. From just glancing at it, the overflow in my case would probably have to be turned into an "underflow", with white pipe constantly draining the water, thus preventing or slowing down the freezing process. I yet have to figure out how big my tank should be to slow down freezing - I reckon a smaller diameter tank would have quicker exchange of surface water. Smaller size would have to likely be compensated by perimeter insulation and maybe adding a collar tire or tires to take advantage of solar effect. I have about 17" wide woven defunct pressure tank with some fittings that could maybe be utilised and 17" tire would fit it nicely (and I would probably use several of them finishing at the topn rim and starting maybe even under the ground surface). Some kind of windbreak and at least partial roof would help too.

First, the tire tank won't freeze up across the top, IF you have continuous flow of ground temp water coming into it... it'll stay open all winter long, WELL below 0°F.

Second, if you divert tile water from the tile to drain to your tire tank (put an "outlet" that takes off JUST underneath and then off to the side of the tile line, that runs downhill at a slightly faster slope than the field tile itself... could use something like 2" black poly pipe... you can still KEEP your larger tile line fully functional then too... but because this "diversion pipe" is pulling from the bottom of the tile line, IT will always get its full run of water...), you'll have water runnning to the tire tank anytime there's water running in the tile. Of course, once that tile dries up (if it ever does), your tire tank also won't have any water in it, once the cows drink it empty.

Plum this tile diversion line into the BOTTOM of your tire tank. If you don't have a pressurized water line coming in (from a well), you don't need to worry about a float valve at all... just let the tire tank fill, from the bottom, from this tile water diversion line. Now here's where you have to be sure to get your tank elevation right... the TOP of the tire has to be installed BELOW, and preferably a number of FEET below, the point at which you are pulling the water off of the tile line (the lower... i.e.: further downslope you can put it, the more "siphon" you will generate on that diversion line where it's pulling water out of the tile line).

Next, install an OVERFLOW pipe like I have in my tire tank, with that vent stack in it, to regulate how "full" it will allow the tire tank to fill to... any excess will just run out into this overflow pipe. Plumb that back over so it drains back into the field tile, further down the hill... this "drain line" will have to be running downhill obviously, but it can be at a pretty flat slope, just so long as it never runs "uphill" at all... if you keep it at about 1/4"/foot of run, so in 10', it'd drop about 2 1/2"... even less would be entirely suitable. I would use 4" PVC for this if your slope is really flat (smooth pipe inside won't plug as easily with debris like hay/grass, etc. from the cows, if that "vent stack" gets broken or knocked out or broken), and a larger pipe than your "inflow" pipe will ensure that you'll always have more ability to take water away than what is coming into the tank.

I'd use excavator tires. You want capacity, if you've got any amount of cattle. You can install one of those just as easily and cheaply as you could something as small as a car tire basically. I've gotten my tires from the gravel pit here for nothing... they have to pay to get rid of their junk tires, and they still work just as well for a tire tank. Indestructible. The ones that I have installed are 6' diameter x 3' wide. VERY heavy to handle, and HARD to cut out the sidewall... I use a Sawzall for that, and cut wherever the sidewall is the thinnest, to make it easier to cut through. Takes me about 30 minutes to get all the way around, pretty good workout. Good news is its a "one and done" job. Mine are all "fully accessible"... not on a partition fence like @CowboyRam . Depending on how many critters you have, a tire tank doesn't allow for "alot" of animals to get around it (I'm watering up to about 300 head on mine... and usually they'll have access to two tire tanks at a time... there's about 600' between the two though).

This can be a great system for you, if your tile runs all year round. If it doesn't, maybe consider installing a smaller waterline to it for those times when the tile isnt' running, maybe even a shallow buried line. Don't know where you're at, so don't know if you can make that work or not... put your location in your ID info, so we all know where you're located.

 

[baldrick]

Thanks again. Yes, this has to be a continous flow for sure. Overflow pipe would be draining constantly. I have to figure out how to get from the clay drain tile to the tank. The only thing that works to get off clay tile is that plastic adapter I posted before. I will have to do everything during dry spell, when this ditch is empty and I can tape/seal all connections.

I will start looking for big tires. One thing that keeps me worried is the concrete (assuming bottom of the tank/tire is concrete) - what if I need access to the plumbing below. I know it works well for HDPE pipe or other permanent plumbing when you homerun the whole thing to the tank. But here there will be several adapters and also a flow of possibly debris contaminated water. I can't consciously entomb a 4" to whatever adapter that can get clogged with twigs. So maybe it will have to be a full diameter coming into the bottom of the tank.

I have just 4 breeding cows, 2 young steers and 1 young heifer right now. 11 acre virgin pasture that sustains this herd easily, including hay production for the winter. I might end up with maybe few more, while trying to find the balance point for this pasture.

Because this drain has ran dry before, I know that this cannot be the only watering system in this pasture. I am planning to install an underground water line this year and 1-2 energy-free waterers for winter watering (that would be something to discuss in another topic, but thanks to your suggestion I will consider tire tank too) and several points for portable troughs along the fence line for rotational grazing.

 

[RDFF]

Thanks again. Yes, this has to be a continous flow for sure. Overflow pipe would be draining constantly. I have to figure out how to get from the clay drain tile to the tank. The only thing that works to get off clay tile is that plastic adapter I posted before. I will have to do everything during dry spell, when this ditch is empty and I can tape/seal all connections.

I will start looking for big tires. One thing that keeps me worried is the concrete (assuming bottom of the tank/tire is concrete) - what if I need access to the plumbing below. I know it works well for HDPE pipe or other permanent plumbing when you homerun the whole thing to the tank. But here there will be several adapters and also a flow of possibly debris contaminated water. I can't consciously entomb a 4" to whatever adapter that can get clogged with twigs. So maybe it will have to be a full diameter coming into the bottom of the tank.

I have just 4 breeding cows, 2 young steers and 1 young heifer right now. 11 acre virgin pasture that sustains this herd easily, including hay production for the winter. I might end up with maybe few more, while trying to find the balance point for this pasture.

Because this drain has ran dry before, I know that this cannot be the only watering system in this pasture. I am planning to install an underground water line this year and 1-2 energy-free waterers for winter watering (that would be something to discuss in another topic, but thanks to your suggestion I will consider tire tank too) and several points for portable troughs along the fence line for rotational grazing.

I'd perhaps reconsider all those watering stations. If I understand you correctly, you've only got 11 acres, and a very limited number of animals. That's the size of my smallest permanently fenced subdivision here (and then I break that up as needed with polywire)... I'm watering 300 head with just two watering stations, and they sometimes walk over a mile to get to them... even during the summer (the reason I'm planning to add a couple more next year, cutting their max walk to about a half mile). Each watering location incurs it's own "dead area" from animal density there. Each of those areas has to be "maintained" to keep it from becoming muddy/beat up. Each has to be "maintained" when things go wrong, and each is an opportunity for something TO go wrong. Each has its own "costs" associated with it.

If I was you, I'd focus on installing this ONE "tile fed continuous flow tire tank", and then if possible, I'd plumb it so I could also fill it with my well water when the tile line isn't running. OR... just forget the tile line thing altogether to save a little up front cost, and just install it with a pressure line to begin with. With a well planned system, you won't need anything else on that size acreage and that limited number of animals.

"The more 'stuff' you have, the more 'stuff' you have to maintain, and pay for. The whole goal should be to keep your input costs as low as possible, and your labor costs. With a proper layout, you certainly SHOULD be able to get by with just one well planned watering station.

 

[baldrick]

The ditch waterer is at the farthest point away from my house of all possible spots where I would install any piped waterer, so I might or might not utilize it for piped system. I can possibly trench it all the way there, but it also means that water would be available along the way (once entering pasture, it would be about 1,300 feet to get to that spot).

Installing fenceline (that wouldn't be a perimeter fence, but an inline fence dividing entire length of pasture in half, with paddocks on both sides) waterline would additionally save us time and effort in switching paddocks for rotational grazing. If it's ran the way I imagine it, 1 summer watering spot would be accessible from 4 paddocks and I would only need a small movable trough/pan/tank to drag along every 4th rotation.

Right now we have to maintain an alleyway for cows to walk all the way to the closest spot to the house where we have a stock tank (in the Summer it was fed by a garden hose and in the winter I replenish it with IBC totes). When the ditch waterer worked, we also had to maintain an alleway to that area. So you obviously end up with compacted soil and wasted hay production, along with cows that could possibly be watered better or more efficiently.

Because of that reason, the way I am thinking about it now, the ditch waterer would be our backup system and also be used when cows are pastured in that area. I totally get the idea of mainaiting more stuff. I am a walking proof of that, with countless pieces of equipment needing work and only so much time on my hands. But that time isn't spent very efficiently hauling water in IBC totes either.

 

[RDFF]

If it's for summer water primarily, a shallow buried line or a line laid over the top can work great. In winter, they don't need alot of water (even with the limited snow this year so far, my own herd of over 100 is hardly EVER seen at the waterers). Just blow it out when it gets too cold for it... and if its shallow buried under sod (let's say along a fenceline), you can probably get away with it till about 0°, and if you have a continuous flow waterer on it, you probably could get away with that all winter long. S-C Wisconsin... like Wis. Dells area? Temps about like here in SE MN. I pulled in a shallow buried line about 1/2 mile last summer for a distant pasture... hooked up to a neighbors well and pay him for water. Most of that line runs across his farm... and I told him that he could use it then for watering his critters too. He also let me plug in an AC fencer over there then, and I let him use that to power his fence if he wants to as well. Options we don't often think about. I was considering designing a "tile water" system there too, but this solution was by far the better way to do. No cost share on it, I just did it. I built a waterline plow (works just like a tile plow, but smaller) for installing the line about 16" deep. I use it to bury jumper wires across gates and headlands, etc. too.

 

[RDFF]

Just learned about this unit on CT about a week ago... (MicroSweeper Ice Preventer). Interesting for sure. There are other devices that work similarly, but this appears to be the best "quality" one I've seen. Just like with my "needle valve" controlled continuous flow system, You HAVE TO HAVE an overflow to prevent mud/ice around your waterer. Discussion about waterers on "Feeding Hay" and "Protecting waterers from pushy cows" threads as well.

 

[RDFF]

I will have to do everything during dry spell, when this ditch is empty and I can tape/seal all connections.

Not really... the tile guys work in the worst of conditions most of the time! All you need to do is be sure to have the tile line below where you're working able to fully take away any water that's coming in through the tile line. I've seen where a 4" tile is running completely full, because of a plug that had to be removed... so the ground uphill couldn't drain... once that plug is removed and the line is running again, it often only takes a few days to slow down and get to only a mild running most of the time, depending on how much acreage is being drained into that main line. Yup, water is still running, but not so that you can't work with it, and get your connections done.

Once you've indentified your elevations, do the downhill portions first (overflow and tire tank)... off away from the main tile line (so you can accomplish the proper line pitch that you need from the diversion water line inlet, over to the tank, and then back over to the tile for the overflow). You can start at the bottom, with the overflow line connection back into the tile line and heading slightly uphill over to the tire tank... that allows for any free "soil water" you may be dealing with to have a "drain away". If need be, you can leave this trench "open"... OR, and this would be a good idea, and how I do mine, you could use perforated drain tile here (corrugated, or also including PVC pipe with the holes in it) for your overflow drain away underground. THAT "drain tile" on this overflow line then allows for soil drainage directly nearby to the tire tank... a good thing. You could even put some washed gravel over that pipe, which will create a "french drain" effect, improving the soil drainage capability of the pipe even more there. I always fill underneath my tire tanks with gravel, to help maintain elevations (level, the washed gravel doesn't "settle"), and for improved drainage around the waterer area. Then install the tire tank, and then work your way back up the elevation to the tile water diversion line connection to the main tile line at the highest elevation. Your main tile line remains fully functional the entire time, taking any water coming in straight away downhill as though you'd never done anything there. You'll only have to be dealing with the flow of water minimally, while you're hooking up your overflow and your diversion line to the tire tank, into the main tile line. You could even be doing this if you wanted right now, with the fairly mild weather we've been getting, although above freezing in spring/summer would certainly be more pleasant. Just depends on how badly you need it.

As for a connection to the clay tile... you could make up PVC fittings at the shop before hand, with the overflow and diversion line fittings all plumbed into it already. There are fittings you can get at Menards to reduce from say, a 6" PVC down to a 2" or less pipe thread fitting... and then just slip the clay tile into the PVC... even if it's "loose", and not sealed... the clay tile isn't "sealed" between tile pieces intentionally... that's how the water infiltrates into the tile line, through the joints between tile pieces. It doesn't need to be sealed... the water isn't intended to be "under pressure", but instead, is just running downhill on the path of least resistance. If the clay tile has an outside diameter of 5", you could use a 6" PVC, and just slip the tile inside of it., and maybe plug around it with spray foam if necessary, so that dirt doesn't wash in too easily through the "too large a gap". Up to a 1/4" gap is OK, more might lead to "erosion"... soil around this "intake area" washing into the tile line. You could put some large washed gravel around this area too, to prevent this... I wouldn't be concerned at all about up to a 1" gap then, if using 1 1/2" washed gravel... the holes in a 4" PVC drain tile pipe are usually almost 1/2" in diameter... Your water diversion line to the tank of course you would want to be "sealed" (but not necessarily to accomodate any sort of high pressure).