Retaining cows during the cattle cycle?

[Stocker Steve]

The majority of spring calving cows selling here in the fall end up going to kill. If I had some young good looking cows I could come out holding them but I typically don't buy those kind to start with.

[/quote]

Rare for a spring calver to go to kill here unless she tries to eat the ring man. So it usually does not pay here to retain many older cows, since you can sell them for a couple hundred over kill in the fall and avoid the winter hay cost. An exception may be during the rising price portion on the cattle cycle.

Dave - Any idea why cows are so cheap there in the fall? Guys here often sell the feeder calves that they raised for a cost of only $200 each, and then immediately reinvest the windfall in more BM cows!!! :cboy:

 

[js1234]

Same criteria goes in a declining market as it does in a rising market. Producing cow gets a job....slackers hit the road.

:nod:

I didn't read past the first few replies but this is the essence of it to my mind. We try our best to not allow the market to make culling decisions. Good cows are good cows and vice versa, whether they are worth $1,000 or $3,000. A cow that doesn't bring a live calf to the weaning pens, every year, good operators send down the road. I have to worry about feed costs, drought, land payments, exports, the futures, workman's comp, ag crime, the high cost of employee insurance, which stud is the right fit for our remuda, if I should forward contract fuel, etc., etc., etc. That old cow just has to worry about one thing, raising a calf. If she can't handle that, why would I want to be in business with her?

However, the one thing that does make me crazy, that is market driven, in terms of culling is this; producers that buy inferior cows in a poor market, and think they are "cheap". Right now, all bred stock feels fairly cheap, this is the time for the underfunded operator ESPECIALLY to bring up the bottom of his herd. I see guys do back flips about the 4 junk bred heifers they got for $650/each and shake my head. This cows will go back to their more than likely junk herd and raise junk calves. When the market improves, the will have slightly more valuable junk. Very similar cash outlay could have bought them 3 good bred heifers and with out question 2 very good bred heifers. Those heifers could have gone back to their junk herd, and weaned good calves, that also went into their herd. Said replacements could have been bred to their junk bull yielding mediocre calves when the market improves. This in it's most rudimentary sense, is herd improvement.

 

[TexasBred]

Same criteria goes in a declining market as it does in a rising market. Producing cow gets a job....slackers hit the road.

This is herd improvement !!!! Market has nothing to do with it.

 

[5S Cattle]

Same criteria goes in a declining market as it does in a rising market. Producing cow gets a job....slackers hit the road.

:nod:

I didn't read past the first few replies but this is the essence of it to my mind. We try our best to not allow the market to make culling decisions. Good cows are good cows and vice versa, whether they are worth $1,000 or $3,000. A cow that doesn't bring a live calf to the weaning pens, every year, good operators send down the road. I have to worry about feed costs, drought, land payments, exports, the futures, workman's comp, ag crime, the high cost of employee insurance, which stud is the right fit for our remuda, if I should forward contract fuel, etc., etc., etc. That old cow just has to worry about one thing, raising a calf. If she can't handle that, why would I want to be in business with her?

However, the one thing that does make me crazy, that is market driven, in terms of culling is this; producers that buy inferior cows in a poor market, and think they are "cheap". Right now, all bred stock feels fairly cheap, this is the time for the underfunded operator ESPECIALLY to bring up the bottom of his herd. I see guys do back flips about the 4 junk bred heifers they got for $650/each and shake my head. This cows will go back to their more than likely junk herd and raise junk calves. When the market improves, the will have slightly more valuable junk. Very similar cash outlay could have bought them 3 good bred heifers and with out question 2 very good bred heifers. Those heifers could have gone back to their junk herd, and weaned good calves, that also went into their herd. Said replacements could have been bred to their junk bull yielding mediocre calves when the market improves. This in it's most rudimentary sense, is herd improvement.

You just described a fella I grew up with to a t. When I bought in, he asked why. I said to try and make a buck, he said nobody makes money with cows. I don't, my brother don't, my brother in law don't. I said we'll look at yalls damn cows :hide: he didn't have much to say to me after that haha

 

[1982vett]

Same criteria goes in a declining market as it does in a rising market. Producing cow gets a job....slackers hit the road.

This is herd improvement !!!! Market has nothing to do with it.

Then we shall change the thread title....

 

[Dave]

The majority of spring calving cows selling here in the fall end up going to kill. If I had some young good looking cows I could come out holding them but I typically don't buy those kind to start with.

Rare for a spring calver to go to kill here unless she tries to eat the ring man. So it usually does not pay here to retain many older cows, since you can sell them for a couple hundred over kill in the fall and avoid the winter hay cost. An exception may be during the rising price portion on the cattle cycle.

Dave - Any idea why cows are so cheap there in the fall? Guys here often sell the feeder calves that they raised for a cost of only $200 each, and then immediately reinvest the windfall in more BM cows!!! :cboy:[/quote]

We have a small isolated market that is mostly backyarders. We don't get enough numbers to attract out of area buyers. I think the backyarders don't want to feed additional cows through the winter. In the past I have gone south and east and bought a load of BM cows out of the range land country. But even that I hold off for a couple of months to save on feeding.

 

[Stocker Steve]

Same criteria goes in a declining market as it does in a rising market. Producing cow gets a job....slackers hit the road.

This is herd improvement !!!! Market has nothing to do with it.

Yes, you are ignoring the market. According to the bean counters you are leaving money on the table with this approach.
They recommend dollar cost averaging by investing the same $ each year. So if replacements are half price you retain twice as many.
This means with a fixed land base you will have more "slackers" at the bottom of the price cycle when heifers are cheap.

 

[Stocker Steve]

However, the one thing that does make me crazy, that is market driven, in terms of culling is this; producers that buy inferior cows in a poor market, and think they are "cheap". Right now, all bred stock feels fairly cheap, this is the time for the underfunded operator ESPECIALLY to bring up the bottom of his herd.

Agreed.

Good bred heifer prices are uneven here, but they have held value better than other female classes. I loaded up on replacement quality heifer calves last October, so 2017 will be another hard cow cull'in year.

 

[TexasBred]

Same criteria goes in a declining market as it does in a rising market. Producing cow gets a job....slackers hit the road.

This is herd improvement !!!! Market has nothing to do with it.

Yes, you are ignoring the market. According to the bean counters you are leaving money on the table with this approach.
They recommend dollar cost averaging by investing the same $ each year. So if replacements are half price you retain twice as many.
This means with a fixed land base you will have more "slackers" at the bottom of the price cycle when heifers are cheap.

I seldom follow the "bean counters" and keep only the heifers that perform, especially replacement heifers. A strong consistent culling policy will eliminate slackers and some of the hurt of lower prices because of quality. Quality will always trump numbers.

 

[backhoeboogie]

My crystal ball is a flat out liar!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have sold when I should have held. I have sold and wished I would have put more in the sale. I have gone to buy and drug home an empty trailer. There's just no telling.

Some times I get lucky.

I bought 40 light heifers in '08 when prices on lightweights bottomed. I wished I would have bought 400. I held heifers that year too. Everyone was telling me I was doing the wrong thing. Thank god I didn't listen.

There are no absolute answers. If you are a winner more often than you are a loser, you are ahead of the game.

 

[antonioitalia]

Same criteria goes in a declining market as it does in a rising market. Producing cow gets a job....slackers hit the road.