Retained Placenta

[dun]

Cleaning a cow/removing AB is a tricky process. The individual cotyledons have to be unsnapped for lack of a better term from the caruncles. Vision the snaps on a shirt. The cotyledon is the part that snaps over the caruncle which is the uterus side of the connection. It isn;t really a sanp over connection but they resemble one.

 

[regolith]

Dun - that's helpful. I asked the last vet I got out to clean a cow why it was a vet's job and he said farmers didn't like it because of the smell. So since then, I've done my own - all two of them. The paucity of information offered can be dangerous at times...

I googled lutalyse (prostaglandin) and I have a suspicion it might be a vet-controlled drug in this country. I've only ever known it used as a fertility treatment for non-cyclers, or to abort mis-mated heifers/cows.

 

[dun]

I googled lutalyse (prostaglandin) and I have a suspicion it might be a vet-controlled drug in this country. I've only ever known it used as a fertility treatment for non-cyclers, or to abort mis-mated heifers/cows.

Lutalyse, estramate and others are perscription drugs here also. There are any number of the PGF2 hormones that go by different trade names but they're basiclly the same thing, or at least have the same affect.

 

[Fred Belknap]

Just about a year ago I had an older cow with the same problem. I talked to a vet and he said to give her LA200 and leave it alone. I tied a couple of horseshoes to it on advise of a neighbor and it took about two weeks for it to come out. The vet said to go in and remove it would introduce more bacteria than just letting nature take its course.

 

[milkmaid]

So many factors here. Beef cows with low milk production, good condition, and no pressure or stress seem to do alright when left alone with a retained placenta. A dairy cow, or any cow with high milk production and/or poor condition and/or stress of any sort would promptly be four feet to the sky if you left the placenta in for more than a few days.

In my own experience on the dairy over the past almost-five years -- cows DO rebreed quicker and there are less cases of uterine scarring when the placenta is removed manually than if they're left alone and develop an infection. No research, no statistical data to back up what I'm saying, so take it or leave it -- but I find better rebreeding rates when RPs are manually taken out than when "nature takes its course."

Lutalyse is fine; I use it every 12 hours until the cow cleans, but won't work if there's a lot of junk still inside and the cervix is closed (48 hours after calving). Works well though if there's just little pieces or a mild infection. Oxytocin works too but has no effect after 48 hours post-calving.

 

[3waycross]

Thanks for all the great replies. They reflected almost exactly what we got from the 3 different vets and the local cow knowledger.

One vet suggested Oxytocin and washing her out with some kind of solution in a pump. No antibiotic.
Another said do nothing at all for a few more days then Lute.
The third suggested removing the placenta manually then inserting the boluses. Plus antibiotic
The local knowledger suggested pretty much what we did, and it seemed to work OK

The one thing that was not mentioned was a fix suggested to my partner by an old cowboy at the feed store. He suggested pulling out the placenta and essentially douching her out with kerosene. We passed on that one.

Here's what we did do. We ran her in the chute gave her 10cc of Lutalayse, the recomended dose of LA200 and GENTLY tugged on the placenta twice for about 10 seconds each time. The second time we tugged on it she appeared to have a very strong contraction and within seconds expelled it apparently in one piece. Kicked her out with her calf and as of 4pm today mother and daughter are both fine.

Thanks again

 

[milkmaid]

Glad to hear it worked out well.

Quick comment on the pump issue -- I saw a cow with peritonitis once (see my autopsy pics post) after being infused with an iodine solution. Apparently someone went too far and punctured the uterine wall, and then pumped 5 gallons of solution into the abdominal cavity of a fresh cow that already had a uterine infection. Wouldn't ever suggest infusing a cow if you're not extremely comfortable with AI, standard palpation, and uterine infusions, and maybe not even then.

 

[dun]

So many factors here. Beef cows with low milk production, good condition, and no pressure or stress seem to do alright when left alone with a retained placenta. A dairy cow, or any cow with high milk production and/or poor condition and/or stress of any sort would promptly be four feet to the sky if you left the placenta in for more than a few days.

In my own experience on the dairy over the past almost-five years -- cows DO rebreed quicker and there are less cases of uterine scarring when the placenta is removed manually than if they're left alone and develop an infection. No research, no statistical data to back up what I'm saying, so take it or leave it -- but I find better rebreeding rates when RPs are manually taken out than when "nature takes its course."

Lutalyse is fine; I use it every 12 hours until the cow cleans, but won't work if there's a lot of junk still inside and the cervix is closed (48 hours after calving). Works well though if there's just little pieces or a mild infection. Oxytocin works too but has no effect after 48 hours post-calving.

And yet around here the dairymen leave it alone and don;t or at least rarely have a problem. Had one 14 days old drop while a cow was in the parlor. The stink ran me out. She bred back within a couple of weeks of having the bull turned back in with the cows.

 

[TexasBred]

I've haven't had any retained placentas in recent years but when dairying I always went in and manually removed retained placentas if they didn't clean out by the day after the calf was born. If you wait any longer you already have a problem.

Jeanne I know your article did not recommend this but I think I do far less damage removing it than I would have by leaving it to cause infection and long term problems. I always washed the vulva with an iodine solution, used OB gloves and worked very slow and gently. In general if you cause no new bleeding you haven't hurt anything. Many times all the entire thing needs is just an easy tug and wil turn completely loose. One the afterbirth was removed I'd insert 6-8 Nolvasan Cap Tabs, give a shot of Lutylase along with vaccinations, vitamins and wormer.

Yep, that's exactly what the old vets do. Doesn't make it right. Everyone is going to stick to what they "think" is the best thing for their cattle. I just know that all the research has PROVEN that the number of days to REBREED is LESS if you leave them alone.

Cattle with uterine infections do not breed.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

I'm not arguing with you. Your point is taken & I agree they do not breed with uterine infections.
But, maybe what MM said holds true. Beef cattle in good health & condition are not prone to get infections.
Everyone that's been in the business for a long time, have their own tried & true methods of handling problems. I go to lots of clinics & read lots of articles (have to for my newsletter) and was "converted" years ago. As Dun always says, benign ignorance sometimes works best.
I went with the research, and leave them alone. Rarely have one, but it does happen. Never had one removed (in earliest years because we didn't know any better), never had a bad infection, never caused a cow not to rebreed. Yes, lots of cows have mild infections but their system is designed to clean it out themselves.
Yes, IF THEY ARE SICK, they need to be treated. Never had one, but I have to "assume" that a cow with a bad uterine infection will run a fever?? yes?? no?? I don't know.

 

[SRBeef]

Prevention of retained placenta
Recent discoveries indicate that retention of foetal membranes is associated with decreased immunity.

Cause Prevention
Metabolic diseases impair uterine immunity (Zerbe et al., 2001) Proper nutrition in peripartum period to avoid metabolic diseases.

Vitamin and mineral deficiencies can impair general immunity Vitamin E and Selenium supplementation (LeBlanc et al., 2002)
Maintenance of Ca ratio of 1.5:1.0 and P supplementation

Infectious diseases Proper immunisation against infections

I am no expert in this area by any means. However from my limited experience I do think the last part of your quote is a key: vitamin and mineral deficiencies.

Maintaining vitamin E and Selenium can be tough in many areas and times of the year, especially ahead of late winter or early spring calving. Vitamin E is very expensive and not in many mineral mixes to any degree. P (phosphorus) referred to in your quote can also be tough to find in certain areas. I think there is good logic to setting out and maintaining availability of a barrel of Mineralyx or something similar with these items, even though they are expensive, especially during the latter half of pregnancy. They may save a lot of dollars in the long run except if they work you are never quite sure.

Retained placenta is one situation where the old saying of "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" may be particularly applicable. jmho.

Thanks for posting the quote.

 

[TexasBred]

SR, very true, more especially in the dairy industry. Most beef cow operations can't justify the development of a separate dry cow ration and mineral as used in dairy management, however, their is never an excuse to not keep out a well balanced highly fortified mineral for cattle. It will always pay for itself in the long run.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

We are a strong believer in proper minerals fed in loose form year round.
However, no matter how great your management is nutritional & health wise, you are still going to get an occasional RP. RP is common with twins, early or late calving, etc. Things we CANNOT control.
If you are having RP with no known cause like dystocia or above reasons, then you best look seriously into your mineral program.
Poor mineral programs are "hidden" disasters.

 

[mobgrazer]

One thing to keep in mind that every time there food source or water source changes they will need a different mineral mix. This is part of the reason I use 2 different mixes for the winter and 2 different mixes for the summer. About 9 months out of the year they have 3 mixes to pick from and salt at all times.

The only pre mix stuff they sell around our stores have supper high levels of Calcium and all the water around us but the river is as hard as a rock. Our entire aquifer is sitting in limestone for 3 towns in each direction.

My creek from the top of the mountain runs about 140 ppm
My 300' well is about 170 ppm
My 150 well is about 160 ppm

I know this because we send in samples 3 to 4 times a year. Most of the time they drink out of the stream and the mixes that get carried in the stores have 17% or more calcium.

I have had lots of poop tests done over the years and still get them done a few times a year so I know if it is way off and needs to change.

 

[TexasBred]

Calcium is cheap...not always what a cow needs but most "typical minerals" will usually have a high inclusion rate for calcium to hold down cost.

 

[TexasBred]

I'm not arguing with you. Your point is taken & I agree they do not breed with uterine infections.
But, maybe what MM said holds true. Beef cattle in good health & condition are not prone to get infections.
Everyone that's been in the business for a long time, have their own tried & true methods of handling problems. I go to lots of clinics & read lots of articles (have to for my newsletter) and was "converted" years ago. As Dun always says, benign ignorance sometimes works best.
I went with the research, and leave them alone. Rarely have one, but it does happen. Never had one removed (in earliest years because we didn't know any better), never had a bad infection, never caused a cow not to rebreed. Yes, lots of cows have mild infections but their system is designed to clean it out themselves.
Yes, IF THEY ARE SICK, they need to be treated. Never had one, but I have to "assume" that a cow with a bad uterine infection will run a fever?? yes?? no?? I don't know.

Yes....milk will dry us and usually has rapid weight loss. Also your climate probably helps as well but down here where it's 90 degrees by 8 AM and a cow has afterbirth hanging for a week you can smell her from a long way off. Then you often have to use the antibiotics and dump milk for a week or so (dairy only). Beef cows RP less often than dairy but you'll always have some regardless of how good your dry cow program is. "Benign ignornance"?? is that like Nero fiddling while Rome burned?? ;-)

 

[SRBeef]

One thing to keep in mind that every time there food source or water source changes they will need a different mineral mix. This is part of the reason I use 2 different mixes for the winter and 2 different mixes for the summer. About 9 months out of the year they have 3 mixes to pick from and salt at all times.

The only pre mix stuff they sell around our stores have supper high levels of Calcium and all the water around us but the river is as hard as a rock. Our entire aquifer is sitting in limestone for 3 towns in each direction.

My creek from the top of the mountain runs about 140 ppm
My 300' well is about 170 ppm
My 150 well is about 160 ppm

I know this because we send in samples 3 to 4 times a year. Most of the time they drink out of the stream and the mixes that get carried in the stores have 17% or more calcium.

I have had lots of poop tests done over the years and still get them done a few times a year so I know if it is way off and needs to change.

Do you then add extra Phosphorous? It is interesting to see the Ca ratio in Jeanne's reference above is 1.5:1 P is expensive in mineral mixes as I recall. It is also interesting to hear you get the manure tested regularly. What are you looking for in the manure test?

 

[mobgrazer]

Do you then add extra Phosphorous? It is interesting to see the Ca ratio in Jeanne's reference above is 1.5:1 P is expensive in mineral mixes as I recall. It is also interesting to hear you get the manure tested regularly. What are you looking for in the manure test?

I do not want to sound stupid but I know all most nothing when it comes to this. A neutralist comes out and holds a sample cup under the tale and gets a fresh sample before it plops on to the ground. It's fun to watch him run form cow to cow when he thinks there about to drop one. My girls get stage fright unlike a diary cow.

He will get 10 samples. He looks at them and tells me a bunch of bull droppings about there diet. 2 weeks latter I get back a 30 page report. It has all kinds of information that I have no idea what it says and compares the samples too the two types of minerals that were out at the time; we will only let them have 2 types of minerals for 30 days before the test. It also looks at the primary types of grasses that they eat. He will also grab a few blood samples.

With the different types of grasses they need different mixes. He takes the grasses that are the most different and bases the mixes off of this. The cattle the cattle can chose what mixes they want at any given day.

I get custom mixes made to the standards that he wants. When I get in a new batch on minerals I send him test samples of the batches.

This is part of the feed testing for some dairies. I am one of the few beef herds that get this done form what I am told. The first 18 months of this I did a test group of 50 cows and every 30 days new samples were taken and the mixed changed. We would mix up the left over in to the other minerals for the rest of our cows. After 18 months he came less often because our feed and water did not change. After a few years the mixes have stabilized out a lot so he comes 4 times a year.

I feel that getting 4 test done a year and getting something that is made for my farm cost me less in the long run then letting my cows OD on one thing and not let them get what they need of something else. We fill the mineral feeder a few times a week and I already know how much of what mix I will need before I look in the feeder just by looking at they types of grasses they were primarily on during this time. None of my pastures have a constant mix of grasses so it's always different.

 

[milkmaid]

Yes, lots of cows have mild infections but their system is designed to clean it out themselves.
Yes, IF THEY ARE SICK, they need to be treated. Never had one, but I have to "assume" that a cow with a bad uterine infection will run a fever?? yes?? no?? I don't know.

Yes and no. I see two types of uterine infections at the dairy - one is the kind that's acute, cow runs a fever, goes off feed, will die without antibiotic and hormone treatment, the second is chronic, cow appears and acts normal but can keep a low grade infection for months without treatment (a shot of Lutalyse will do the trick for most cases).

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

So, by what MM says, the way I described the way to handle a RP is correct.
IF RP and shows signs of SICK, treat (uterine or shots, etc)
IF RP & healthy, leave alone, give Lutalyse 7-10 days later, and again (I'll add) until pussy discharge subsides.
Experienced producers knows their areas, and unicque problems for their area. If you say extreme heat causes more of a problem, than I guess you know best. Research didn't specify temperature problems.
And yes, they can get really stinky up hear also. Smell them on the other side of the field.