Registered Angus ??

[randiliana]

Here are a couple calves that are 1/2 registered Black Angus.

This cow is Registered. The sire of the calf is a SOLID black 1/2 registered angus, 1/2 simmental bull. Wonder where that white on the face came from??

This calf (who IS horned) is out of a solid black commercial angus cow. I know SHE carries the horn AND red gene, but she was bred to a Registered angus bull. Wonder how the horns and white spot on the head got there.

These aren't the only "wonder where that came from" calves we had this year. And they were all out of one registered parent...

 

[hillsdown]

I may be missing something but how can you even have a 50% registered bull?Sorry re read your post and the sire is out of a purebred angus and purebred simmi?The white came from the simmi probably.I have two simmi's that I run with my GV bull and they always have some white on them.And if I am missunderstanding your post and question sorry.

 

[randiliana]

I may be missing something but how can you even have a 50% registered bull?Sorry re read your post and the sire is out of a purebred angus and purebred simmi?The white came from the simmi probably.I have two simmi's that I run with my GV bull and they always have some white on them.And if I am missunderstanding your post and question sorry.

Sorry the bull is OUT of a registered Black Angus cow, and a Simmental bull. He is NOT a registered bull. Presumably his sire was a registered simmental, although we don't know about that for sure.

What I am getting at is that the DAM of the calf is a Registered Black Angus. The sire (bull in question) is 1/2 Black Angus and 1/2 Simmental. And HE is SOLID black. So, HOW do you get a calf with white markings like that out of a Registered Black Angus cow and a SOLID black Angus/Simmi bull?? I realize the gene is recessive and that the sire is carrying it on from the simmental side, but as far as I know Registered Black Angus shouldn't be carrying any recessive spotting genes :shock: .

Just a couple oddities I thought I would post. Those 2 calves aren't a real problem for us since we run commercial cows anyways. The registered cow is just something we got at a local dispersal. She is a reasonably good cow.

 

[VanC]

Here are a couple calves that are 1/2 registered Black Angus.

This cow is Registered. The sire of the calf is a SOLID black 1/2 registered angus, 1/2 simmental bull. Wonder where that white on the face came from??

I would guess the white came from the Simmental part of the equation. Just because a bull is solid black doesn't mean he can't throw something else if it's lurking in his genes somewhere.

This calf (who IS horned) is out of a solid black commercial angus cow. I know SHE carries the horn AND red gene, but she was bred to a Registered angus bull. Wonder how the horns and white spot on the head got there.

Obviously, the bull carried the red gene, too. Only way to get a red calf out of two black parents. Just because a black bull of any breed is registered doesn't mean he will always throw black calves. My guess on the white spot is that it came from the cow. She probably wasn't 100% Angus and something popped up from her background. As far as the horns go, well, I don't know enough about that to say.

These aren't the only "wonder where that came from" calves we had this year. And they were all out of one registered parent...

In today's world, registered doesn't automatically mean pure. Lot's of things can pop up from time to time. Either way, I hope those calves turn out well for you.

 

[hillsdown]

Some breeds will let you register cross breds so long as both sire and dam are registered with their respective breed associations. Registered GelbviehXAngus balancers etc. The American Salers Association will let you register in their percentage registry as long as the animal is no less than 25% salers. Secondly, only the sire has to be registered with the association in order to register the cross bred offspring. Hope this gives you a better understanding of how you can register cross bred animals. If I am not mistaken these angus simmi crosses can be registered with the American Simmental Association as SimmAngus cattle so long as both parents are registered with their respective breed associations.

No I got that CB and from what I first read I thought that each sire was only 50%.Know alot about the balancer bulls and the super guppie thing (just sold one today in fact) and from Randi's post my second read gave it to me right.All I can say is that the white shows up in the most unlikely situations but they are really nice looking calves.

Sorry Van I guess I was still typing while you were posting.What Van said ditto.

 

[randiliana]

Here are a couple calves that are 1/2 registered Black Angus.

This cow is Registered. The sire of the calf is a SOLID black 1/2 registered angus, 1/2 simmental bull. Wonder where that white on the face came from??

I would guess the white came from the Simmental part of the equation. Just because a bull is solid black doesn't mean he can't throw something else if it's lurking in his genes somewhere.

This calf (who IS horned) is out of a solid black commercial angus cow. I know SHE carries the horn AND red gene, but she was bred to a Registered angus bull. Wonder how the horns and white spot on the head got there.

Obviously, the bull carried the red gene, too. Only way to get a red calf out of two black parents. Just because a black bull of any breed is registered doesn't mean he will always throw black calves. My guess on the white spot is that it came from the cow. She probably wasn't 100% Angus and something popped up from her background. As far as the horns go, well, I don't know enough about that to say.

These aren't the only "wonder where that came from" calves we had this year. And they were all out of one registered parent...

In today's world, registered doesn't automatically mean pure. Lot's of things can pop up from time to time. Either way, I hope those calves turn out well for you.

But, Registered Black Angus IS supposed to mean something. They are supposed to be HOMO polled which means you should NEVER get horned offspring off them, and I also believe that they are supposed to be HOMO solid colored which means NO spots either.

I am not too worried about it. I find it a bit pathetic though that the breeds are not as pure as they would have us believe ;-) . I understand a fair bit about genetics myself, and the white marks you are seeing are coming from a recessive gene. What this means, it that BOTH parents had to carry 1 copy of that gene. It doesn't shock me that the red calf's mother could carry that recessive gene. However, being that the recessive spotting gene had to also (in both cases) come from a Registered Black Angus animal, I find kind of ironic. The horn gene is also recessive. I knew that cow carried the horn gene, since she often would have horned calves when bred to Horned Hereford. The red gene does not bother me at all. I rather like the red calves myself, and I know that there are numerous animals in the Black Angus breed that carry the red gene.

 

[hillsdown]

Sorry for the misunderstanding I was trying to help. After I had posted I went saw where you posted saying you understood. At that point it was to late as I had already posted. HA HA HA!

See there you guys go again typing faster than me Darn dial up; I guess the jokes on me :lol: :lol: :lol: .

 

[hillsdown]

Randi I know what you are saying and it doesn't make sense NS was posting about this a couple of days ago.I know a very well known blk angus breeder in Northern Sask that has run into this problem when buying from other well known established breeders.He will look over that bull with a magnifying glass and if there is one speck of white it is junk to him.I think all the breeds have been "watered down" a bit in the last 20 years. I don't know if it the associations that are just thankful that we still register and pay our dues that they don't check or if some Joe's out there are just down right liars and crooks.

 

[hillsdown]

Sorry you have dialup. I used to have it. Have cable now will never go back to dialup even when I die.

I have no choice where I live it is the only option.We live 10 minutes east of Red Deer AB and yet we still can not get proper facilties(cell phone reception /high speed).The nearest tower for high speed is 15 minutes east of us but is not receivable from where we are.The air card thing is out because an $800 plus bill/month jsut won't work.Hopefully soon we will be remembered around here by the rest of society.How do you get cable in the country?You guys have it wayyyy to easy .

 

[SEC]

Randi, the spots come from the Simmental. It takes numerous generations of solid color breeding to keep the solid color.

Look in the semen catalogues there are some 3/4 brothers, Lucky Dice, Lucky Break and Lucky Stripes...I mean Lucky Strike. They are all out of Lucky Buck. Bred many generations of solid coloring but nothing is sure. DNA tests will identify if a bull is a spotter or not ( I think). You will see bulls classified as spotter and non spotters. Just be prepared for some chrome. Of course there are some Angus, not so much in the Blk side compared to the red side that will sire white.

In the Red Angus breed, Knight's, SR Image (in Knight's Pedigree), High Line (same lineage as High Mark) are just some of the bulls taht are known to throw white sometimes in excess. In the Blk side of things, Fame, Fortune 2000, Focus (all same lineage), Head of the Class, most Travelers you will find a little white on them.

To have a little white on them doesn't mean they are impure, unless you see socks or stars, those kind of bulls don't get used much anymore.

Depending on the pedigrees you are using in the breed there are some bulls in the past that were known horn carriers. Not always were they made up of another breed, rather it may be a throw back to some early breeding while still in the old country.

 

[msscamp]

Here are a couple calves that are 1/2 registered Black Angus.

This cow is Registered. The sire of the calf is a SOLID black 1/2 registered angus, 1/2 simmental bull. Wonder where that white on the face came from??


Probably from the Simmenal side of the sire.

This calf (who IS horned) is out of a solid black commercial angus cow. I know SHE carries the horn AND red gene, but she was bred to a Registered angus bull. Wonder how the horns and white spot on the head got there.

Breeding up, possibly? A bull can be a registered Angus (or any other breed for that matter) bull and still have a lot of things in the woodpile - like the gene for horns, and atypical coloring. ;-)

These aren't the only "wonder where that came from" calves we had this year. And they were all out of one registered parent...

 

[msscamp]

I may be missing something but how can you even have a 50% registered bull?

A number of breed associations allow registering bred up animals.

 

[randiliana]

Randi, the spots come from the Simmental. It takes numerous generations of solid color breeding to keep the solid color.

Look in the semen catalogues there are some 3/4 brothers, Lucky Dice, Lucky Break and Lucky Stripes...I mean Lucky Strike. They are all out of Lucky Buck. Bred many generations of solid coloring but nothing is sure. DNA tests will identify if a bull is a spotter or not ( I think). You will see bulls classified as spotter and non spotters. Just be prepared for some chrome. Of course there are some Angus, not so much in the Blk side compared to the red side that will sire white.

In the Red Angus breed, Knight's, SR Image (in Knight's Pedigree), High Line (same lineage as High Mark) are just some of the bulls taht are known to throw white sometimes in excess. In the Blk side of things, Fame, Fortune 2000, Focus (all same lineage), Head of the Class, most Travelers you will find a little white on them.

To have a little white on them doesn't mean they are impure, unless you see socks or stars, those kind of bulls don't get used much anymore.

Depending on the pedigrees you are using in the breed there are some bulls in the past that were known horn carriers. Not always were they made up of another breed, rather it may be a throw back to some early breeding while still in the old country.

Yes, but this spotting gene MUST come from BOTH parents. It is recessive, same as the spotting gene in the Shorthorn. For example, we bred our Shorthorn bull who is homo for the spotting gene to numerous solid colored cows, and ALL of those calves were solid colored, because HE could only pass on 1 copy and obviously the dams did not pass on a copy. When we bred him to a spotted cow(homozygous for spotting) he of course threw a spotted calf.

This Angus/Simmi bull we know has a copy of the spotting gene, and now we also know that there is something hiding in that black cow's side of things. Because she ALSO had to pass on that gene or the calf would have been solid colored. If the gene were dominant on either side, you would have seen spots on either the cow or the bull and they are BOTH solid black. I don't think that either one has any white hair on them at all.

As I said before, it doesn't really affect us much as we raise commercial cattle. It is just something to talk about.

If you are interested in the cow's pedigree her Registration # is 1035256 with the Canadian Angus Association. (this is the Black cow in the picture.) I know nothing about Black Angus bloodlines, and don't really care to. Interestingly enough, we also have one other Registered cow, with somewhat the same bloodlines that ALSO threw a calf (off the same bull) with white markings on its face. Her reg # is 1104203.

 

[SEC]

Randi, the spots come from the Simmental. It takes numerous generations of solid color breeding to keep the solid color.

Look in the semen catalogues there are some 3/4 brothers, Lucky Dice, Lucky Break and Lucky Stripes...I mean Lucky Strike. They are all out of Lucky Buck. Bred many generations of solid coloring but nothing is sure. DNA tests will identify if a bull is a spotter or not ( I think). You will see bulls classified as spotter and non spotters. Just be prepared for some chrome. Of course there are some Angus, not so much in the Blk side compared to the red side that will sire white.

In the Red Angus breed, Knight's, SR Image (in Knight's Pedigree), High Line (same lineage as High Mark) are just some of the bulls taht are known to throw white sometimes in excess. In the Blk side of things, Fame, Fortune 2000, Focus (all same lineage), Head of the Class, most Travelers you will find a little white on them.

To have a little white on them doesn't mean they are impure, unless you see socks or stars, those kind of bulls don't get used much anymore.

Depending on the pedigrees you are using in the breed there are some bulls in the past that were known horn carriers. Not always were they made up of another breed, rather it may be a throw back to some early breeding while still in the old country.

Yes, but this spotting gene MUST come from BOTH parents. It is recessive, same as the spotting gene in the Shorthorn. For example, we bred our Shorthorn bull who is homo for the spotting gene to numerous solid colored cows, and ALL of those calves were solid colored, because HE could only pass on 1 copy and obviously the dams did not pass on a copy. When we bred him to a spotted cow(homozygous for spotting) he of course threw a spotted calf.

This Angus/Simmi bull we know has a copy of the spotting gene, and now we also know that there is something hiding in that black cow's side of things. Because she ALSO had to pass on that gene or the calf would have been solid colored. If the gene were dominant on either side, you would have seen spots on either the cow or the bull and they are BOTH solid black. I don't think that either one has any white hair on them at all.

As I said before, it doesn't really affect us much as we raise commercial cattle. It is just something to talk about.

If you are interested in the cow's pedigree her Registration # is 1035256 with the Canadian Angus Association. (this is the Black cow in the picture.) I know nothing about Black Angus bloodlines, and don't really care to. Interestingly enough, we also have one other Registered cow, with somewhat the same bloodlines that ALSO threw a calf (off the same bull) with white markings on its face. Her reg # is 1104203.

Randy, the spotting gene doesn't have to come from both sides in the simmy world, one being a spotter is good enough to get spots. Take a solid color cow and breed them to a traditiional color simmy bull and you could very well end up with spots as well. There are bulls that will clean up spots and some will ad them.

Regarding your two PB Angus cows, they are mother/daughter and there is a history of white in the bloodlines, the 1104203 cow is out of Fortune 2000 who could sire more white than a holstein when crossed the right way. So this shouldn't be of no suprise. Are they actually pure? I don't know that one can actually say they aren't just because the have some white problems.


There are times when you have 2 completely black animals and you cross them you will get white, sometimes a tremendous amount and may never know where it comes from.

Life's unsolved mysteries!

 

[randiliana]

Randy, the spotting gene doesn't have to come from both sides in the simmy world, one being a spotter is good enough to get spots. Take a solid color cow and breed them to a traditiional color simmy bull and you could very well end up with spots as well. There are bulls that will clean up spots and some will ad them.

Regarding your two PB Angus cows, they are mother/daughter and there is a history of white in the bloodlines, the 1104203 cow is out of Fortune 2000 who could sire more white than a holstein when crossed the right way. So this shouldn't be of no suprise. Are they actually pure? I don't know that one can actually say they aren't just because the have some white problems.


There are times when you have 2 completely black animals and you cross them you will get white, sometimes a tremendous amount and may never know where it comes from.

Life's unsolved mysteries!

Well, I have to admit that I need to study up on the simmental color genetics. Now, I am really curious. As I had understood it there were 2 genes that the simmental carried that resulted in white markings. One is the recessive spotting gene, and the other the blaze gene which is incompletely dominant, and acts differently on solid colored animals than it does on spotted or whitefaced(hereford type) animals. So perhaps that is where the white is coming from on these calves. I have a very interesting article that discusses and explains the colors and color patterns of cattle.

As for the 2 cows, they are not mother daughter, but on closer examination of their registration papers, the one cow is the granddam of the other. So I guess, close enough. I really don't follow the Angus bloodlines, so, I did not know that bloodline carried the extra white. It is interesting as well, as we have some cows that are sired by (AI) Hall of Fame. So if I see a bunch of white coming out of them I will certainly not be surprised ;-)

An interesting discussion what ever the case.

 

[SEC]

My mistake you are right, on the Angus cows.

i am unaware of the blaze gene in the Simmy business.

Regardless you are right it's an interesting discussion.

 

[randiliana]

My mistake you are right, on the Angus cows.

Nope, YOU are right. Got talking about them with hubby and looking closer and they ARE mother and daughter. Got confused reading the pedigrees. Sorry about that. And, that tells you how much we look at the papers

i am unaware of the blaze gene in the Simmy business.

The blaze gene in the Simmi works kind of like the whiteface of the Hereford as it is incompletely dominant, which means that if they have it you will see it. But it also works in combination with the recessive spot gene and/or the Hereford whiteface gene. One copy of the gene will give you stars, snips, blazes and two will give you more of a baldy look on a Solid animal. On a spotted animal it works somewhat differently, but you will often see goggles and other simmi type markings.

Regardless you are right it's an interesting discussion.

 

[dun]

The whole white face spotting deal isn't as easily explained as people would have you think. We use a lot of Polled Hereford on Red Angus and Red Angus on Polled Hereford then breed the daughters back to one breed or the other. I have yet to find any predictability past the first cross and sometimes that isn;t all that predictible. One young cow is brockle faced, probably from Simmenthal somewhere in her background. Bred to a Polled Hereford the calf is brockle faced just like her. The other solid red Red Angus cows had real baldy calves. It's always been a surprise when the calves hit the ground to see what markings they'll have. Had one F1 red baldy with goggle eyes. We bred her to a number of Red Angus bulls and she never had a calf with a single white hair on it. Br5ed her to a very close marked Polled Hereford and the resulting calf looks more like a Hereford then 90% of the Herefords around here.

dun

 

[randiliana]

The whole white face spotting deal isn't as easily explained as people would have you think. We use a lot of Polled Hereford on Red Angus and Red Angus on Polled Hereford then breed the daughters back to one breed or the other. I have yet to find any predictability past the first cross and sometimes that isn;t all that predictible. One young cow is brockle faced, probably from Simmenthal somewhere in her background. Bred to a Polled Hereford the calf is brockle faced just like her. The other solid red Red Angus cows had real baldy calves. It's always been a surprise when the calves hit the ground to see what markings they'll have. Had one F1 red baldy with goggle eyes. We bred her to a number of Red Angus bulls and she never had a calf with a single white hair on it. Br5ed her to a very close marked Polled Hereford and the resulting calf looks more like a Hereford then 90% of the Herefords around here.

dun

That is for sure. There are several genes that work to give you white markings on the face and/or legs, and they can work together to give you some interesting markings. You have the Whiteface (from the Hereford), the Blaze face (which from what I gather is mostly Simmi or Holstien), the recessive spotting(Shorthorn, Maine, Simmental etc), and then you can also add in the brockling gene(from the solid colored breeds and Shorthorn) which is usually what gives you the dark patches in the white areas (such as a brockle face OR mottled legs). Goggle eyes, for the most part, I don't think are from the brockling gene, from what I have read they are a different gene which isn't completely understood yet.

I found a very good article that explains how the genes work, and is actually understandable to the average person. Can't remeber the webpage, but if someone is interested, they can PM me and I will email it to them.

 

[dun]

I forget to mention a Red Angus cow bred to the same Polled Hereford bull we used this year had a daughter with very heavy brockle face. Bred her to a Red Angus and the resulting heifer calf is the one that was in my avatar for a while. She's markede almost exactly like her mother.
Maybe that's one of the reasons we cross breed, we get such interesting combinations.

dun