Red Vs. Black

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

For those of you that raise cattle that come in either red or black .. have you heard rumblings of a switch from the generally preferred black hides back to red?

Back to the original question. In the purebred Simmental breed, it started out that no matter what the quality was - a black Simmi brought big bucks. Than, all you could find in the sire books were mainly black bulls to use. Than, quality blacks brought the high dollar. Black was hot, hot.
Now, trend is changing. Cattle quality - not so much the color -dictates the high dollar. Red is getting much more popular in the PB Simmental business. Just my observation. Of course, a new RED breeder has started up, and went around the country paying boocoo bucks for top quality red cows, that tends to up the demand.
But, yes, red is back in favor in this breed.
Like I always say, I don't care if they are purple & polka dotted (wouldn't that be a site :shock: ) , I only care if they are good - phenotype, structure, fertility, temperament, etc. Color is the least of my concern - except, color dictates my sales, so I have to "chase" some of the fad. Actually, I just keep the "off" fad cattle & use them as my replacements, & sell the most recent "fad".

 

[1848]

It's a viscious cycle! ;-) Get that market!

 

[1848]

The "fact" remains that one requirement in the making of the Brangus breed was that it be 100% black!

How does this explain Red Brangus?

dun

Wasn't supported by Angus (black) (the dominant gene), so it didn't see the popularity. If you read the the establishment of the "Brangus" breed (not Red Brangus) the 100% black was a requirement! In fact, the Breed Assoc. IRBBA wasn't estabished until the early 90's. Once again. It's about marketing!

 

[Frankie]

The "fact" remains that one requirement in the making of the Brangus breed was that it be 100% black!

How does this explain Red Brangus?

dun

Wasn't supported by Angus (black) (the dominant gene), so it didn't see the popularity. If you read the the establishment of the "Brangus" breed (not Red Brangus) the 100% black was a requirement! In fact, the Breed Assoc. IRBBA wasn't estabished until the early 90's. Once again. It's about marketing!

The American Angus Association had nothing to do with the establishment of the Brangus breed. Nor have they had anything to do with the AngusPlus breed. In fact, they turned down a request to maintain AngusPlus herd records.

According to the OKState Breeds site:

"A review of the development of the Brangus breed would take us back beyond the founding of the American Brangus Breeders Association in 1949; however, registered Brangus descend from the foundation animals recorded that year or registered Brahman and Angus cattle enrolled since then. Much of the early work in crossing Brahman and Angus cattle was done at the USDA Experiment Station in Jeanerette, Louisiana. According to the USDA 1935 Yearbook in Agriculture the research with these crossed started about 1932.
During the same period, Clear Creek Ranch of Welch, Oklahoma and Grenada, Mississippi, Raymond Pope of Vinita, Oklahoma, the Essar Ranch of San Antonio, Texas, and a few individual breeders in other parts of the United States and Canada were also carrying on private experimental breeding programs. They were looking for a desirable beef-type animal that would retain the Brahman's natural ability to thrive under adverse conditions in combination with the excellent qualities for which the Angus are noted."


http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/cattle/

 

[1848]

[quote "frankie"]The American Angus Association had nothing to do with the establishment of the Brangus breed. Nor have they had anything to do with the AngusPlus breed. In fact, they turned down a request to maintain AngusPlus herd records.[/quote]

In my dialogue "concerning Brangus", I belive I referenced Angus "people" and Angus "breed", not Angus "Association" (even though that is what makes up an Assoc.)

It is too bad that the Angus Assoc. will not support AngusPlus, as far as record keeping; there loss. Imagine the data they could obtain with doing somethng like this, especially seeing the AHA allowing other stock to be used for collection of data on their bulls this way...with adjustments of course.

In any case, we cannot mistake the fact that both breeds you refer too have the word "Angus" in them :shock: ! ...and it did take some "purebred" Angus breeders (probably Angus Assoc. members who had registered stock) to come together with the "purebred" Brahman breeders and form the breed. I'm guessing these founders weren't just average commercial cattlemen who just had their own registered Angus lying around :roll Especially when they needed the genetically best "purebred" stock to get the phenotype, and blood percentages right in their crossing of the breeds. Maybe I'm missing something here. Were you actually offended by the fact that Brangus animals had their roots establised, in part by Angus breeders?

 

[Tod Dague]

[quote "frankie"]The American Angus Association had nothing to do with the establishment of the Brangus breed. Nor have they had anything to do with the AngusPlus breed. In fact, they turned down a request to maintain AngusPlus herd records.

In my dialogue "concerning Brangus", I belive I referenced Angus "people" and Angus "breed", not Angus "Association" (even though that is what makes up an Assoc.)

It is too bad that the Angus Assoc. will not support AngusPlus, as far as record keeping; there loss. Imagine the data they could obtain with doing somethng like this, especially seeing the AHA allowing other stock to be used for collection of data on their bulls this way...with adjustments of course.

In any case, we cannot mistake the fact that both breeds you refer too have the word "Angus" in them :shock: ! ...and it did take some "purebred" Angus breeders (probably Angus Assoc. members who had registered stock) to come together with the "purebred" Brahman breeders and form the breed. I'm guessing these founders weren't just average commercial cattlemen who just had their own registered Angus lying around :roll Especially when they needed the genetically best "purebred" stock to get the phenotype, and blood percentages right in their crossing of the breeds. Maybe I'm missing something here. Were you actually offended by the fact that Brangus animals had their roots establised, in part by Angus breeders?[/quote]

Careful. Reach a little further and you might fall over. ;-)

 

[Frankie]

In my dialogue "concerning Brangus", I belive I referenced Angus "people" and Angus "breed", not Angus "Association" (even though that is what makes up an Assoc.)

Right. Associations are made up of "people." Your inference was that the Angus Association was involved with the beginning of the Brangus breed. That's not true.

It is too bad that the Angus Assoc. will not support AngusPlus, as far as record keeping; there loss. Imagine the data they could obtain with doing somethng like this, especially seeing the AHA allowing other stock to be used for collection of data on their bulls this way...with adjustments of course.

The Angus Association has this little requirement that both parents of a calf to be registered Angus before they'll register the calf Angus. They didn't want bull buyers to accidently buy an Angus+ instead of an Angus. The Red Angus Association is keeping the Angus+ records. Hopefully, they'll be able to use the data they collect to benefit both breeds. Not to be mean here, but look at the AHA and the AAA. I do believe the AAA is doing a bit better. And the AAA uses some data reported by commercial breeders. They have a program called Beef Record Service for commercial cattlemen that is much like the AHIR program for registered breeders.

In any case, we cannot mistake the fact that both breeds you refer too have the word "Angus" in them :shock

Anyone can use the word "Angus." As much as they'd like to, the Angus Association doesn't own that word. I read somewhere there are over 40 items on supermarket shelfs with the word "Angus" in their name. The only one of those that belongs to the Angus Association is CAB.

! ...and it did take some "purebred" Angus breeders (probably Angus Assoc. members who had registered stock) to come together with the "purebred" Brahman breeders and form the breed. I'm guessing these founders weren't just average commercial cattlemen who just had their own registered Angus lying around :roll Especially when they needed the genetically best "purebred" stock to get the phenotype, and blood percentages right in their crossing of the breeds.

Tod's right. You're going to fall on your face if you keep reaching. No, the Brangus founders weren't average commercial cattlemen and there were some Angus people involved. But they were involved as individuals, not as representatives of the Angus Association.

Maybe I'm missing something here. Were you actually offended by the fact that Brangus animals had their roots establised, in part by Angus breeders?

No. There are some good Brangus around. The Ray Brothers here in OK have tested some very, very good bulls at OBI. And Camp Cooley is producing some very good animals. But around here the term "brangus" is usually applied to any black animal with some ear. Personally, I think they would do well to close their herd book and stop allowing bred up animals to be registered. But that's only my opinion. I'm not offended by anything you've said. I just think if your comments are left unchallenged, some people will accept them as fact. And some of them aren't.

 

[1848]

[quote "frankie"]The American Angus Association had nothing to do with the establishment of the Brangus breed. Nor have they had anything to do with the AngusPlus breed. In fact, they turned down a request to maintain AngusPlus herd records.

Careful. Reach a little further and you might fall over. ;-)

.. Where you refering to Frankies quote or mine, because you referenced "the Hot Dogs!"..even though it showed 1848.... ;-)

 

[1848]

Right. Associations are made up of "people." Your inference was that the Angus Association was involved with the beginning of the Brangus breed. That's not true.

Hellooo!..tap..tap..tap.......Association "people" were. Remember, BrANGUS, purebreds, registered stock...if you want inference I think that should just about do it. That's kinda like saying the british descent people in America (the settlers who were from england?) around 1776 weren't the ones who helped America gain it's freedom from the british. :roll:

Not to be mean here, but look at the AHA and the AAA. I do believe the AAA is doing a bit better. And the AAA uses some data reported by commercial breeders. They have a program called Beef Record Service for commercial cattlemen that is much like the AHIR program for registered breeders.

Whether or not the AAA is doing better is personal opinion. I didn't know Angus had that program "too"... ;-)

Anyone can use the word "Angus." As much as they'd like to, the Angus Association doesn't own that word. I read somewhere there are over 40 items on supermarket shelfs with the word "Angus" in their name. The only one of those that belongs to the Angus Association is CAB.

Your right! I can, I did, and so did Brangus! I just wonder why! If they had nothing to do with "Angus"... (being general of course, but we (you) concluded that people is Assoc., so when we say Angus we mean the same thing... :lol: )....why did they want to affiliate themselves with that word?....thats's all...

[1848]! ...and it did take some "purebred" Angus breeders (probably Angus Assoc. members who had registered stock) to come together with the "purebred" Brahman breeders and form the breed. I'm guessing these founders weren't just average commercial cattlemen who just had their own registered Angus lying around :roll Especially when they needed the genetically best "purebred" stock to get the phenotype, and blood percentages right in their crossing of the breeds.[/quote]

Tod's right. You're going to fall on your face if you keep reaching. No, the Brangus founders weren't average commercial cattlemen and there were some Angus people involved. But they were involved as individuals, not as representatives of the Angus Association.

But people are Assoc.....you just said that yourself!

Maybe I'm missing something here. Were you actually offended by the fact that Brangus animals had their roots establised, in part by Angus breeders?

No. There are some good Brangus around. The Ray Brothers here in OK have tested some very, very good bulls at OBI. And Camp Cooley is producing some very good animals. But around here the term "brangus" is usually applied to any black animal with some ear.[ Personally, I think they would do well to close their herd book and stop allowing bred up animals to be registered. But that's only my opinion. I'm not offended by anything you've said. I just think if your comments are left unchallenged, some people will accept them as fact. And some of them aren't.

Frankie, Frankie......you hot dog.... :lol: ........I like you. You get some! Yes, people do refer to a alot of black cattle with ear as Brangus "looking". If you look back to my first very first comment I let everybody know this was allot of opinion... ;-) I put that right up front!

...........and I beleive everything I said!.... :shock:

 

[Tod Dague]

[quote "frankie"]The American Angus Association had nothing to do with the establishment of the Brangus breed. Nor have they had anything to do with the AngusPlus breed. In fact, they turned down a request to maintain AngusPlus herd records.

Careful. Reach a little further and you might fall over. ;-)

.. Where you refering to Frankies quote or mine, because you referenced "the Hot Dogs!"..even though it showed 1848.... ;-)

Yours. Sorry for the misquote. ;-)

 

[1848]

Yours. Sorry for the misquote.

I can't figure out the quotes half the time either...

Note the underlined.

Right. Associations are made up of "people." Your inference was that the Angus Association was involved with the beginning of the Brangus breed. That's not true.

Careful. Reach a little further and you might fall over.

No, the Brangus founders weren't average commercial cattlemen and there were some Angus people involved. But they were involved as individuals, not as representatives of the Angus Association.

Y'all need to get together on this. I'm sure if you were to find the individuals in the Angus Assoc. that helped originate the Brangus breed, they would tell you it was in their interest and in the interest of the Angus breed (which maintains it's integrity through an Assoc.). Like I said, that 100% black requirement didn't come from the Brahmans interest. Has CAB profited from the black hide of Brangus..you bet! Why didn't CAB just ask for 50% Angus blood for CAB upfront like the Red Angus did?

"Brangus Tipping" :?:

 

[Wyatt Tinson]

What does it matter you folks! As long as we get cattle to market to meet our prices. Whether its black or red BEEF will taste the same, if managed properly.