Red Vs. Black

[TheBullLady]

For those of you that raise cattle that come in either red or black .. have you heard rumblings of a switch from the generally preferred black hides back to red?

Last year at the fall sales the price on red cattle was definately up compared to the previous year, and black cattle were cheaper. I've talked to a lot of breeders since, and they are all talking about reds becoming the "color to have" this year. Interesting... of course in this part of the country it really makes more sense to me, because of the heat factor.

What are y'all seeing?

 

[Beefy]

I've seen buyers catching on and actually calling out calves as black limousin versus angus. Used to it was a "black" calf. now its a "black limousin, black simmental, black angus," etc.

I dont really see there being another significant color fad in the future though. maybe breed recognition or QUALITY but not another color fad.

 

[shorty]

I have mostly red cows ( simmental cross) and a black simmental bull, some calves are black, some red , some dark brown, I feed a few steers every year to sell as freezer beef and when the hide is off you can't tell the difference . I feel it's more important to have a good animal and feed them right than to worry about hide color . My customers keep coming back year after year.

 

[catl]

BullLady,I haven't heard anyone talkin' about the colors but i did notice the change after about mid year.Up to that point black was doing the best and then the buyers switched to reds ,then to smokies, then chars and back to reds.Blacks still bringin' good money though and right now everything is high and hard to get. More buyers than sellers down here. Have a nice day !

 

[fitz]

Just signed on and have been reading some very interesting & educational posts. Like Mr. Shorty, I have always raised and been mostly proud of my red/white simmental cross. Until I get to the sale. Here, if they're not Black your money goes down. I raise my own replacement heifers and my last two Bulls have Blk. Simm. That tells you where I'm going. Personally, I attribute the local color preference to a very successful marketing strategy by the Black Angus folks. With my luck by the time I get all black something else will come around.

Fitz.

 

[Frankie]

For those of you that raise cattle that come in either red or black .. have you heard rumblings of a switch from the generally preferred black hides back to red?

Last year at the fall sales the price on red cattle was definately up compared to the previous year, and black cattle were cheaper. I've talked to a lot of breeders since, and they are all talking about reds becoming the "color to have" this year. Interesting... of course in this part of the country it really makes more sense to me, because of the heat factor.

What are y'all seeing?

There are always "rumblings." What sells better at one sale barn won't sell as better at another. I haven't been to the sale barn in a while, but last time I went, good black calves outsold good red calves and sorry black calves outsold sorry red calves. But that's just one sale barn. If you're wondering if the Angus ship has sailed, I doubt it. The Association gained more new members last year than the year before, registered more cattle than the year before. They're working hard on the AnguSource program to add value to Angus sired calves. They're working with feedlots to identify Angus genetics that work for commercial cattlemen. I may be seeing more red Limousin cattle around than I did for a few years and, personally, I think that's a good thing. I think breeds that turned black did themselves a disservice. They can downsize, breed for marbling, turn them black, but they're still not Angus. In the meantime, some of them have gotten away from the qualities that made their breed popular in the first place.

 

[mwj]

I went to the local sale Tue.. to see if there were any bargains. I watched about 400 head of good fat cattle sell and could not tell any diferance in price due to the color of the hide. The same held true for feeders. There were wide variations in quality in both groups and that reflected in price! As a side note I am seeing a lot more sraight bred herford ''fats'' than in the past but I have no indication as to why they are not using black bulls.
your friend
Mike

 

[jerry27150]

nothing ever stays the same!!! the red angus people claim their cattle have less pinkeye & other heat relaed problems. stands to reason

 

[Farmhand]

Use to be around here restaurants promoted black Angus beef. Now seeing a lot promoting Angus beef and leaving color out of it. Personally I like red better than black. Just a color thing though. Feel heat tolerances are better but heard rumor that there is only a 2 degree difference. Haven't checked it out though. My mommas are all different - a few Char., Hereford, Simmental, and Holstein. Breed with red Angus bull though. Like the calving ease and disposition. Butcher all our own meat. Can't tell the difference in taste. Holstein steaks are way bigger though. Trying to decide which one to butcher right now. Thinking of going with a Holstein but not sure if I have room in the freezer! As far as standing in the pond - black may go there first but white will soon join it. Hot is hot.

 

[1848]

Sounds like alot of Angus people in on this question. I'll throw my two cents in on colors, and type. Then step on some toes, and then y'all can hammer me...

Soap Box

The Angus Assoc. and breeders did a great job of marketing their cattle years ago, based on carcass quality and taste of the beef. Now it helped their marketing that "some" Angus sires typically threw lightweight calves, (athough many Angus sires in the semen directories nowadays have BW's in the 90's).. ;-), they were homozygous (an added plus), and had the dominant black gene. (and they dig, but that's another story.. ). So, finishers picked up on this $ per lb for a better hanging "british" carcass and it trickled to the the buyer. "Fill those feed lots with black and get more money" came the call. Now that was fine until that dominant black gene began to filter over and not just mean "Angus" anymore. We had black Limo's (Supposed to be red), Black Simmi's (supposed to be cream and white), Brangus for the Southern states (ever seen a jet black Brahman?), Black Mane Anjue, Black heinz 57's, Black Chiania's (white)...heck even black holstiens.. :lol: Black was where the money was at (and in most cases still is).

But.....a couple of years ago the Cert. Angus Beef Program (CAB) had to "reevaluate" it's direction. They were sure getting alot of black in the feedlots (I'm pretty sure the CAB Program only required "X" % black, but)
nothing about 50% "Angus". an early CAB mistake) so the quality of the carcass went down. (go figure...they weren't all british anymore) Of the thousands and thousands of "black" head which made there way into the CAB lots, only 18% qualified as CAB. (most of them had white faces... :shock: You wonder why the black baldy started to outsell (and still does) solid black? Because buyers could assume within reason that calf might have Hereford in it...which meant british...which meant better carcass...and more $ return hanging. Sometimes the white face meant Simmi, but they'd take their chance. If I'm not mistaken, in the last couple of years the CAB program started requiring 50% angus for their lots to correct this problem. I think it has worked.

But......The Hereford people jumped into Certified Hereford Beef (CHB)with a 50% hereford requirement up front! They CHB program is taking off in unprecidented speed because of this. So red is not such a bad thing anymore... Some breeders will even try to attribute this to blacks don't work as well when the sun comes up! Those blacks, due to their color, will find shade before getting the job done! (they also cost more to buy) The terminal crossses that can be done with herefords and other breeds, and the F1's that can be produced have helped put color back in the market..not to mention the trusted white face.

The buckskins, and Charolaise crosses are a result of cow/calf operations and stockers getting more pounds in the sale barn... carcass quality is not what that segment is concerned with. They want frame and muscle. In fact it drove the feed lots crazy for a while, because they were having to finish big framed animals. Taking them to 1.500 lbs to finish them before slaughter was killing them in time and money. Not to mention they didn't always grade out! Of course the BW's of some of these monsters calves, and their temperments in the field has slowed their use as much as the feed lots saying "no" to much of the Brahman influenced cattle, and some Continentals. Other pure bred breeders needed an edge in the market. Thus the Gerts 5 Star program, and then Nolan Ryan's new push (I believe for Bos Indicus influenced cattle) is born.... Of course we coincidently see more emphasis on carcass quality in all breeds to get their edge of the market. (hopefully limos will get some fat in that carcass with time..but it will probably be when people want lean beef.. ) All in all, new cuts of beef, pre packaged beef and so on has allowed lower grading carcasses (mixed cattle of different color) to be utilized without so much deduction anymore, so it's not "always" black that steals the market now. It's just residual effects of years of buying black....

Whew...I'm getting tired.

Some of this is fact. Alot of it is opinion, but what's funny is that if you follow the livestock papers, the purebred breeders focuses, livestock seminars, and so on, then watch; you will see it reflect very quickly in the buying at the sale barn and the bulls in use in the field!

 

[dun]

If I'm not mistaken, in the last couple of years the CAB program started requiring 50% angus for their lots to correct this problem.

From the USDA CAB specification:

2.2 Phenotype. Cattle eligible for certification in Angus influence beef programs based on phenotype (appearance) must be predominately (51 percent) solid black.

The Red Angus Association has a certification program (USDA approved) for calves that are at least 50% Red Angus. There's also another certified program that requires a minimum of 50% Angus, Red or blck but I don;t recall the program name.

dun

 

[1848]

Thankyou Dun,

I didn't know that there were 3 CAB programs out there. I guess I'd better read up or shut up... I really do admire the Angus breed, despite my comments, and what the breeders have done to market them. They set a good example early on and everyone else is playing catch-up. Glad to see the AAA still willing to make adjustments for product improvement.

 

[jgn]

It doesn't matter what color I have around here because as soon as I get the color they want they decide they want a different one. It seems as the colors being preferred around here runs in cycles, one year its black the next red and the next grey. I think as long as you've got good calves to sell it really doesn't matter much on the color.

 

[Frankie]

Thankyou Dun,

I didn't know that there were 3 CAB programs out there. I guess I'd better read up or shut up... I really do admire the Angus breed, despite my comments, and what the breeders have done to market them. They set a good example early on and everyone else is playing catch-up. Glad to see the AAA still willing to make adjustments for product improvement.

There's only one CAB. It belongs to the American Angus Association. You can buy CAB in three "flavors": regular, Prime and Natural.

The requirement is still for the animal to be 51% black hided. There's no requirement for CAB to contain any Angus. The black hide is proof of Angus influence.

 

[Texan]

We had black Limo's (Supposed to be red), Black Simmi's (supposed to be cream and white), Brangus for the Southern states (ever seen a jet black Brahman?), Black Mane Anjue, Black heinz 57's, Black Chiania's (white)...heck even black holstiens.. :lol: Black was where the money was at (and in most cases still is).

How does Brangus fit in with that group? Do you actually consider them a color based fad? Do you think the originators of the Brangus breed had a crystal ball to foresee the development and successes of CAB?

.......what's funny is that if you follow the livestock papers, the purebred breeders focuses, livestock seminars, and so on, then watch; you will see it reflect very quickly in the buying at the sale barn and the bulls in use in the field!

Can you explain this? Where do you see any of these fads that are chased by purebred breeders "reflect very quickly in the buying at the sale barn?" I thought the fad chasers that market through salebarns usually received some heavy discounts? Maybe I'm out of touch, but I just don't see many cattle feeders and order buyers chasing after the purebred breeders and their full page ads.

And in the case of black, isn't it actually just the opposite? Aren't the purebred breeders, and in some cases (as you pointed out) entire breeds, responding to demand from buyers and feeders? Seems to me that the CAB based demand for black started with the consumer. It then passed back through the retailer, to the packer, to the feeder, then the order buyer, on to the producer and then the purebred bunch responded to that increased demand with more blacks. At least, that's my perception. Where am I wrong?

 

[jerry27150]

the ave. people in any city couldn't tell angus from hereford, so i would say someone else is telling them what to say

 

[1848]

There's only one CAB. It belongs to the American Angus Association. You can buy CAB in three "flavors": regular, Prime and Natural.

The requirement is still for the animal to be 51% black hided. There's no requirement for CAB to contain any Angus. The black hide is proof of Angus influence.

Well I stand corrected!...again. I was sure I read where CAB was going to change the requirement to 50% Angus. Maybe they just haven't made the switch yet...

 

[1848]

How does Brangus fit in with that group? Do you actually consider them a color based fad? Do you think the originators of the Brangus breed had a crystal ball to foresee the development and successes of CAB?

I knew I would stir up a little response...

Ok so I did go a little overboard with that statement, seeing that Brangus breed was around in the lates forties. I should have used black Simbrah.. . I just couldn't think of it at the moment I was writing ....but, Yes, it still fits in the big scheme of things, and yes they had a plan years ago. Brahman Breeders were trying to establish a market for Brahman qualities which were desirable, (heat tolerance, tight hair, longivity etc.) but the Brahman was not so accepted that it could bring in the confidence of the traditional breeders all by itself. (Brahman Register established around 1964, alot later compared to other breeds due to lack of acceptance and poularity). The Angus breed saw an opportunity, and they joined in this venture to cross breed the Brahman and make the Brahma breed more more mainstream, while helping themselves. The "fact" remains that one requirement in the making of the Brangus breed was that it be 100% black! (hmmm), and I'm pretty sure the Angus people who wanted to also expand their influence and push the desirable traits of Angus had a little to do with that... ;-) Everybody already knew Angus (british) beef was good tasting (w/o CAB), and this worked into the Brahmans breeders scheme to cover their deficiencies for quality carcass (no offense Brahman breeders). So, black and carcass were, in fact, early considerations which evolved into the marketing scheme of black (then Angus) and eventually into pushing a CAB (50% black) program. It was good marketing!

 

[1848]

.......what's funny is that if you follow the livestock papers, the purebred breeders focuses, livestock seminars, and so on, then watch; you will see it reflect very quickly in the buying at the sale barn and the bulls in use in the field!

Can you explain this? Where do you see any of these fads that are chased by purebred breeders "reflect very quickly in the buying at the sale barn?"

I don't believe I wrote anything which said these fads, as you call them, were chased by "pure bred" breeders. What I did write was examples of periodicals, and avenues that "cattlemen/women use to follow breeding trends to gain the best use of the market.

I thought the fad chasers that market through salebarns usually received some heavy discounts? Maybe I'm out of touch, but I just don't see many cattle feeders and order buyers chasing after the purebred breeders and their full page ads.

It's not about Purebred breeders ads. It's about general cattle information and breed information, and what studies they have done. (Assoc.'s have the resources). They learn from these avenues. All breeds benefit in some way or another from each others Breeds Assoc's through their research on different aspects of cattle raising, and they pass it on through their periodicals and seminars. Don't think that feeders and order buyers don't follow this information (we have alot of information they can learn by as we in turn learn by them and follow their trends) Many purebred breeders also run commercial herds to support the purebred end.. :roll:, so they have contacts, markets, and customers associated with the "general" cattle raiser (cow/ calf operations). and the feeder calf operations too. Like it or not, cattle feeders and order buyers want carcass quality and they know the breeds and characteristics which will do it for their region.

And in the case of black, isn't it actually just the opposite? Aren't the purebred breeders, and in some cases (as you pointed out) entire breeds, responding to demand from buyers and feeders? Seems to me that the CAB based demand for black started with the consumer. It then passed back through the retailer, to the packer, to the feeder, then the order buyer, on to the producer and then the purebred bunch responded to that increased demand with more blacks. At least, that's my perception. Where am I wrong?

Man! I had to read that last one a couple of times. I think you are right in that it is a viscious cycle, and we do feed off each other. Some of us just do a better job of marketing then others... ;-) I think I answered some of what you were asking in the previous comment above. (I also think it was just a differnt way of saying what you did.. ) Associations are there for a reason....to help us market our breed to the best benefit of the breeder. Angus has just done a good job of this

 

[dun]

The "fact" remains that one requirement in the making of the Brangus breed was that it be 100% black!

How does this explain Red Brangus?

dun