Red Angus Bull: Tear him up

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3waycross

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He's not mine but I do have a couple of calves out of him the cream colored one below is one of mine the other belongs to his owner. He has thrown some very nice calves on the Shorthorns and the Shorthorn/GV crosses. I know what I like and dislike about him . I am curious what ya"ll have to say

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A couple of his calves. Btw he turned 3 this spring

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DOC HARRIS

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3way-

I was a little taken aback when I studied this bull. I was under the opinion that you were pretty well informed and had your priorities in line for the perusal and understanding of the judging qualities of bulls, and what will REALLY work with cows of mixed genetics and phenotype and functional traits, and what kind of mating selections were required to be successful in breeding profitable beef cattle.
Then I read where you said, “I know what I like and dislike about him.” THAT statement made me realize that it was time for the members of this Forum to stop repeating the same mantra over and over to breeders who have heard the same criticisms and structural explanations – over and over – and for them to read what OTHER breeders have to say about this bull, who was probably lucky enough to be bred to cows with characteristics and traits which will make him look better than he really is, by having calves that are better than HE really is!
3way- please tell us “ - - what YOU like and dislike” about him! “

DOC HARRIS
 

hillsdown

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Me being an uneducated beginner and really bad judgement with bulls I will start.

I like his top line.
I don't like his head.
I like the shoulder structuring which probably means he throws smaller calves.
He lacks a little muscle in the rump.
He does look somewhat even all around.
I like his frame score too.

Like I said I am a novice and am probably wrong.. :(
 
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3waycross

3waycross

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DOC HARRIS":1avq2n2k said:
3way-

I was a little taken aback when I studied this bull. I was under the opinion that you were pretty well informed and had your priorities in line for the perusal and understanding of the judging qualities of bulls, and what will REALLY work with cows of mixed genetics and phenotype and functional traits, and what kind of mating selections were required to be successful in breeding profitable beef cattle.
Then I read where you said, “I know what I like and dislike about him.” THAT statement made me realize that it was time for the members of this Forum to stop repeating the same mantra over and over to breeders who have heard the same criticisms and structural explanations – over and over – and for them to read what OTHER breeders have to say about this bull, who was probably lucky enough to be bred to cows with characteristics and traits which will make him look better than he really is, by having calves that are better than HE really is!
3way- please tell us “ - - what YOU like and dislike” about him! “

DOC HARRIS

Well Doc you pretty much hit the nail on the head. So for starters here's what I like about him;
his topline
his disposition, can't see that in the picture but he throws it.
the rear half of him. he actually has pretty good muscle, and he throws it. These calves haves some great butts on them.
His calves we only had to pull one and it had a leg folded back
His calves they are for the most part BIG stout kids


What I don't like about him;
Everything from the shortloin forward,
His head
his front legs (he is narrow almost knockneed)
No offense to HD but I don't like his shoulders(however his calves came real easy even the big ones.
His potency, he left a lot of open cows last year.
Most of all I don't like the way he ties in the shoulders to me he has an almost fatal weakness in his Ribeye.
 

hillsdown

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That was hard to see from the pic 3way as it looked like he had nice muscling in his shoulders but not over powering.

I think your heifer will throw a beauty form him as she has all that he is lacking.
 

mnmtranching

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I can see a pretty decent herd bull there, and I can also see the easy disposition. I know your not asking about cows, but I'm a "cowman" That old Shorthorn cow with the awful bag would go down the road while she is in that good flesh. Well, let her get the calf up to weaning size first.
 
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3waycross

3waycross

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mnmtranching":3vdwmckv said:
I can see a pretty decent herd bull there, and I can also see the easy disposition. I know your not asking about cows, but I'm a "cowman" That old Shorthorn cow with the awful bag would go down the road while she is in that good flesh. Well, let her get the calf up to weaning size first.

She was actually at the sale barn last Jan but after getting her preg checked he thought he would bring her home and get that last calf out of her. Bad idea it wasn't born until June and will not match the set at all. I woulda culled her 2 years ago if she was mine. She's broke mouth and gets later every year.
 

DOC HARRIS

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3waycross":2jt6ckbo said:
He's not mine but I do have a couple of calves out of him the cream colored one below is one of mine the other belongs to his owner. He has thrown some very nice calves on the Shorthorns and the Shorthorn/GV crosses. I know what I like and dislike about him . I am curious what ya"ll have to say

IMG00026-20090713-1255.jpg


IMG00025-20090713-1255_edited.jpg


IMG00024-20090713-1254_edited.jpg


A couple of his calves. Btw he turned 3 this spring

IMG00022-20090713-1250_edited.jpg


IMG00021-20090713-1250_edited.jpg

3way-
Someone asked me to give a more specific analysis of this bull than my first post on this thread. I will do so, with the caveat that I always hold – and that is that A picture is never a satisfactory criterion to use for selection of SEEDSTOCK cattle. Neither are SEVERAL pictures. Many factors and selection processes must be taken into account for a man to be successful in this BU$INE$$!
I am certainly aware that many reasonably good bulls who have even moderate Phenotype, better Genotype than the average run-of-the-mill cow in the average herd in the country, and barely acceptable Functional traits can suffice for making moderate improvements in some herds. Let’s agree to that fact. As a perfectionist, I abhor accepting characteristics and traits which are not as perfect as I would prefer. But NOTHING is perfect, and no individual animal is perfect either! So – that being said – let’s proceed to having a close look at this bull, and see if, in the process, we can implant in our brains and memories some of the factors which will make our “Bottom Line” more acceptable at the end of the year, and help our beef herds to be PROFITABLE, instead of just a chore and a frustration to spend time and money attempting to realize SUCCESS! After all is said and done, the primary reason that most of us are in this Beef Cattle business is NOT just for the Fun and Grins that accompany the efforts that we expend on it. PROFIT is the ultimate goal – or at least it SHOULD BE! If a Rancher or Farmer who raises beef cattle is satisfied with using “Cow Freshener” breeding stock, Bulls AND Cows, it will make little difference to him what quality seedstock he uses. But if he wishes to see some financial results at the end of the year from his work, he had better learn how to select the cattle which will produce those results.
Here is my opinion of this Bull, which is only in general terms, and not complete with the inclusion of his EPD’s, DNA analysis, or review of his progeny. I also have not seen his Sire OR his Dam, which I certainly would insist upon doing if he were going into a Registered Herd with an eye toward Function, Longevity and Progeny, and whether he is to be used for a Cow/Calf operation, or a Terminal program.

Considering the Positive aspects of this bull, at first observation he strikes me as a fairly well-balanced male bovine. Not having good 90 degree angles views, either side, rear, front OR from above, it is subjective at best to obviate the “fore-shortening” effects that camera lenses create. From the side view, by dividing the animal from front to rear into thirds, he is quite well balanced, presenting an equal image from his poll to his withers (top of his shoulder blades), from his withers to the front of his Hook bones, and from his hook bones to the most rearward part of his rump, or Round. The IDEAL measurements here would be for his neck length to be about 2 inches shorter than the other measurements – each. This neck measurement of 2 inches shorter than body length at 12 months would include the development of his crest, indicating the presence of Testosterone (male hormone) which manifests Libido, AND, bulls with two inches or shorter neck length at twelve months have daughters that mature early. As the neck gets shorter his daughters’ rump WIDTH gets wider, thereby producing more pounds of beef with their progeny. There is that PROFIT subject again! This bull is not ideal in this respect, but he is not bad. His body length is in line with the ideal, is deep bodied extending back to the 13th rib, BUT at that point he is cut up in the flank, creating a discrepancy in his hind quarter DEPTH, but not hindquarter LENGTH. Rump height indicates ease of self-fleshing, ease of keeping, and early maturity. (PROFIT angle again!)
In the oblique angle view the shoulders appear too ‘open’ and rough, indicating a tendency to have difficult birthing calves, but you indicated that didn’t seem to be a problem with this particular bull, but perhaps that was due to the ability of the cows and their Calving Ease EPD’s. He has a moderately level top line considering that he is standing on unlevel ground. The muscle action and responses to a ton of bull on uneven ground is considerable, causing a picture to display an incorrect image of what he really is - if standing on a flat, level surface. I have a question regarding his left hock and left foot. It appears to me that his left foot is turned outward, but that could be the uneven ground that he is standing on.
My criticism of this bull is the previously-mentioned lack of spring of rib, his long, cow face lacking masculinity, seemingly weak pasterns on his fore feet and his standing too close in front, caused by a restricted width in his front end, cut up in his rear flank, and a side-sloping rump.
Taken all-in-all, this bull has an unusual anatomy, however my feeling is that he could produce good heifer replacements because of his apparent potential capacity, in spite of his obvious lack of spring of upper rib, IF he were to be bred to cows who could overcome those discrepancies with contrasting Phenotypic traits.
I have not delved into some of the more obvious judging factors such as EPD’s and Performance results because they are unknown to me at the present time. But ALL of those elements and components should be taken into consideration when selection of seedstock is JOB ONE!

DOC
 

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