Recip Cows

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RD-Sam

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What do you look for in a recipient cow? Would you want the same milking ability as the donor cow to simulate growth as close as possible?
 

whitecow

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I'm not sure how important it is to match the milking ability of the donor. For starters, I'm not sure how you would do that. I guess the general apperance of the udder gives some clue as to the milking ability of a cow, but it certainly doesn't tell the whole story. How fast does she fill it up? What is the composition of the milk? How much milk does she actaully produce? I generally look for cows that will have better than average milking ability...get the calf to grow well but not necessarily to simulate the growth that would be expected if the calf were on the donor.

I think the main criteria for selecting recips are: is she fertile?, is she structurely sound? is she disease-free? is she big enough to easily have a calf of the expected size? how is her temperment? does she have strong materal behavior? is she a good milker (hopefully above average)?
 
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RD-Sam

RD-Sam

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Could you compare milk by the EPD? Thanks for the pointers, a couple of those I hadn't considered.
 

CKC1586

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whitecow":3ou3szwt said:
I'm not sure how important it is to match the milking ability of the donor. For starters, I'm not sure how you would do that. I guess the general apperance of the udder gives some clue as to the milking ability of a cow, but it certainly doesn't tell the whole story. How fast does she fill it up? What is the composition of the milk? How much milk does she actaully produce? I generally look for cows that will have better than average milking ability...get the calf to grow well but not necessarily to simulate the growth that would be expected if the calf were on the donor.

I think the main criteria for selecting recips are: is she fertile?, is she structurely sound? is she disease-free? is she big enough to easily have a calf of the expected size? how is her temperment? does she have strong materal behavior? is she a good milker (hopefully above average)?


That is it!
 

KMacGinley

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RD-Sam":9t6e9alc said:
Could you compare milk by the EPD? Thanks for the pointers, a couple of those I hadn't considered.

Not if your recip is crossbred, either beef/dairy or just beef. A lot of people like a herf/hol or ang/hol cross heifer for a recip.

Are you thinking of flushing your cow that you had pictured with her calf?
 
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RD-Sam

RD-Sam

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Yes, I may flush her next fall, and I have another really nice cow I may flush. I was going to buy registered angus for recips, I would rather have everything registered.

I was just thinking that if you wanted to get a better idea about the breedings, it would be better to have a recip with the same milking ability as the donor, that way the calves aren't bigger or smaller as a result of the milk. Just my brain on overdrive again! :lol2:
 

4CTophand

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RD-Sam":3fpomtjq said:
Could you compare milk by the EPD? Thanks for the pointers, a couple of those I hadn't considered.

I wouldnt purchase some heavy milking recips because of the difficulty in breeding them back at times and also their requirements for maintenance is much higher. Recips should be just avg cows that have a good track record raising calves.

Milk EPD's for example in Simms--- you should try to keep their MM EPD below a 5.. heavy milkers --which simms are just require more inputs and I have 100's of moderate milkers who on avg wean a 650lb + calf on a yearly basis

T
 

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4CTophand":3v15bkju said:
RD-Sam":3v15bkju said:
Could you compare milk by the EPD? Thanks for the pointers, a couple of those I hadn't considered.

I wouldnt purchase some heavy milking recips because of the difficulty in breeding them back at times and also their requirements for maintenance is much higher. Recips should be just avg cows that have a good track record raising calves.

Milk EPD's for example in Simms--- you should try to keep their MM EPD below a 5.. heavy milkers --which simms are just require more inputs and I have 100's of moderate milkers who on avg wean a 650lb + calf on a yearly basis

T

So Tophand just home many cows do you run if you 100's of moderate milkers?
 

Jeanne - Simme Valley

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Any cow that has a good track record of raising a good calf, is fertile & healthy would make a good recip. A Crossbred cow is actually better than a PB cow. But - if you are purchasing cows that you want to remain in your herd - than you should be purchasing cows that fit your breeding program.
Not sure where you're coming from on trying to "match" the milking ability of donor & recip. Who cares? If the cow being flushed is worthy of being a donor, than she SHOULD be a good milker, along with being superior to other females in her breed (not just your best cow????)
The goal is to have a "great" calf out of the supposedly "great" cow. The recip can be blind in one eye & crooked legged as long as she breeds, stays healthy, milks well & has a good temp.
The better the recip milks, the bigger her calf should be at weaning.
 

dun

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To get EPds on an ET angus calf doesn;t the recip need to be registered? Seems like I heard or saw that somwehre
 
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RD-Sam

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Jeanne - Simme Valley":6pk4kclz said:
Any cow that has a good track record of raising a good calf, is fertile & healthy would make a good recip. A Crossbred cow is actually better than a PB cow. But - if you are purchasing cows that you want to remain in your herd - than you should be purchasing cows that fit your breeding program.
Not sure where you're coming from on trying to "match" the milking ability of donor & recip. Who cares? If the cow being flushed is worthy of being a donor, than she SHOULD be a good milker, along with being superior to other females in her breed (not just your best cow????)
The goal is to have a "great" calf out of the supposedly "great" cow. The recip can be blind in one eye & crooked legged as long as she breeds, stays healthy, milks well & has a good temp.
The better the recip milks, the bigger her calf should be at weaning.

HELLO!!!! WOW!!! Where to begin, the donor does not raise the calf, the recip does, so if the recip has crappy milk, how is she going to raise a good calf? Just because the donor has good milk does not mean the calf will be fine if raised by a recip with crappy milk. In the same type senario, what if the recip has way too much milk and raises an oversized calf, which would not happen if the calf was raised by the donor with normal milking ability? What good would it do me to raise a calf that was too big or too scrawny? :tiphat:
 

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RD-Sam":1sr48n11 said:
What do you look for in a recipient cow? Would you want the same milking ability as the donor cow to simulate growth as close as possible?

If you're using non-Angus as a recip for an Angus embryo, the calf won't have EPDs. But if you use registered Angus cows, with EPDs, as recips, the calves will have EPDs. You don't have to try and match the recip's EPDs with the donor dam's EPDs; the Assn is able to incorporate all that data into EPDs for the calf.
 

dun

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Frankie":1to1kt18 said:
RD-Sam":1to1kt18 said:
What do you look for in a recipient cow? Would you want the same milking ability as the donor cow to simulate growth as close as possible?

If you're using non-Angus as a recip for an Angus embryo, the calf won't have EPDs. But if you use registered Angus cows, with EPDs, as recips, the calves will have EPDs. You don't have to try and match the recip's EPDs with the donor dam's EPDs; the Assn is able to incorporate all that data into EPDs for the calf.
Does the EPD deal just apply to the calves prelimnary EPDs. Will they be calculated on it's own performance later on?
 
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RD-Sam

RD-Sam

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Frankie":3dtck55p said:
RD-Sam":3dtck55p said:
What do you look for in a recipient cow? Would you want the same milking ability as the donor cow to simulate growth as close as possible?

If you're using non-Angus as a recip for an Angus embryo, the calf won't have EPDs. But if you use registered Angus cows, with EPDs, as recips, the calves will have EPDs. You don't have to try and match the recip's EPDs with the donor dam's EPDs; the Assn is able to incorporate all that data into EPDs for the calf.

Okay, well that sorta clears that up, I guess they have a way to calculate the differences in the calf being raised by a recip.
 

Jeanne - Simme Valley

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RD-Sam":iipjys7v said:
Jeanne - Simme Valley":iipjys7v said:
Any cow that has a good track record of raising a good calf, is fertile & healthy would make a good recip. A Crossbred cow is actually better than a PB cow. But - if you are purchasing cows that you want to remain in your herd - than you should be purchasing cows that fit your breeding program.
Not sure where you're coming from on trying to "match" the milking ability of donor & recip. Who cares? If the cow being flushed is worthy of being a donor, than she SHOULD be a good milker, along with being superior to other females in her breed (not just your best cow????)
The goal is to have a "great" calf out of the supposedly "great" cow. The recip can be blind in one eye & crooked legged as long as she breeds, stays healthy, milks well & has a good temp.
The better the recip milks, the bigger her calf should be at weaning.

HELLO!!!! WOW!!! Where to begin, the donor does not raise the calf, the recip does, so if the recip has crappy milk, how is she going to raise a good calf? Just because the donor has good milk does not mean the calf will be fine if raised by a recip with crappy milk. In the same type senario, what if the recip has way too much milk and raises an oversized calf, which would not happen if the calf was raised by the donor with normal milking ability? What good would it do me to raise a calf that was too big or too scrawny? :tiphat:

Trust me, I KNOW that. Re-read what I posted. The recip has to be a good milker! If not, she could possibly "stunt" the growth of the calf.
Now, your concern about the recip having TOO MUCH MILK, does not make any sense at all to me. Unless she has so much milk that she is going to get mastitis or scour her calf, the more the better. Are you afraid a recip might do a BETTER job of raising an embryo calf than what the actual donor will do????
The idea is to get the best growth out of what should be a superior calf. What do you mean "too big"??? ---- too big at birth??? too big at weaning???? big, how??? fat?? tall??? You are supposedly producing a calf with superior genetics. The recip needs enough milk to meet those genetics. I'm not recommending a HOLSTEIN.
I must be missing something here. Please explain.
And the EPD situation is an ANGUS thing. Not an issue in other breeds that I know of. At least not my breed.
 

Frankie

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dun":16u12f68 said:
Frankie":16u12f68 said:
RD-Sam":16u12f68 said:
What do you look for in a recipient cow? Would you want the same milking ability as the donor cow to simulate growth as close as possible?

If you're using non-Angus as a recip for an Angus embryo, the calf won't have EPDs. But if you use registered Angus cows, with EPDs, as recips, the calves will have EPDs. You don't have to try and match the recip's EPDs with the donor dam's EPDs; the Assn is able to incorporate all that data into EPDs for the calf.
Does the EPD deal just apply to the calves prelimnary EPDs. Will they be calculated on it's own performance later on?

I'd guess embryo calves have Interim EPDs. I don't know if they can get "real" EPDs until they're raised a calf or not. We've reported all the data on our spring 2008 heifers and they all now have "real" EPDs, not Interims.
 

dun

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Frankie":zv6uw21g said:
I'd guess embryo calves have Interim EPDs. I don't know if they can get "real" EPDs until they're raised a calf or not. We've reported all the data on our spring 2008 heifers and they all now have "real" EPDs, not Interims.

Just a curiosity thing on my part. I've never talked to the vet about it but he's using some crossbred cows from our breeding for his recips.
 

Frankie

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RD-Sam":1y8f19la said:
Frankie":1y8f19la said:
RD-Sam":1y8f19la said:
What do you look for in a recipient cow? Would you want the same milking ability as the donor cow to simulate growth as close as possible?

If you're using non-Angus as a recip for an Angus embryo, the calf won't have EPDs. But if you use registered Angus cows, with EPDs, as recips, the calves will have EPDs. You don't have to try and match the recip's EPDs with the donor dam's EPDs; the Assn is able to incorporate all that data into EPDs for the calf.

Okay, well that sorta clears that up, I guess they have a way to calculate the differences in the calf being raised by a recip.

They do if the recip is a registered Angus with EPDs.
 
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RD-Sam

RD-Sam

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Jeanne - Simme Valley":2g4xi9zy said:
RD-Sam":2g4xi9zy said:
Jeanne - Simme Valley":2g4xi9zy said:
Any cow that has a good track record of raising a good calf, is fertile & healthy would make a good recip. A Crossbred cow is actually better than a PB cow. But - if you are purchasing cows that you want to remain in your herd - than you should be purchasing cows that fit your breeding program.
Not sure where you're coming from on trying to "match" the milking ability of donor & recip. Who cares? If the cow being flushed is worthy of being a donor, than she SHOULD be a good milker, along with being superior to other females in her breed (not just your best cow????)
The goal is to have a "great" calf out of the supposedly "great" cow. The recip can be blind in one eye & crooked legged as long as she breeds, stays healthy, milks well & has a good temp.
The better the recip milks, the bigger her calf should be at weaning.

HELLO!!!! WOW!!! Where to begin, the donor does not raise the calf, the recip does, so if the recip has crappy milk, how is she going to raise a good calf? Just because the donor has good milk does not mean the calf will be fine if raised by a recip with crappy milk. In the same type senario, what if the recip has way too much milk and raises an oversized calf, which would not happen if the calf was raised by the donor with normal milking ability? What good would it do me to raise a calf that was too big or too scrawny? :tiphat:

Trust me, I KNOW that. Re-read what I posted. The recip has to be a good milker! If not, she could possibly "stunt" the growth of the calf.
Now, your concern about the recip having TOO MUCH MILK, does not make any sense at all to me. Unless she has so much milk that she is going to get mastitis or scour her calf, the more the better. Are you afraid a recip might do a BETTER job of raising an embryo calf than what the actual donor will do????
The idea is to get the best growth out of what should be a superior calf. What do you mean "too big"??? ---- too big at birth??? too big at weaning???? big, how??? fat?? tall??? You are supposedly producing a calf with superior genetics. The recip needs enough milk to meet those genetics. I'm not recommending a HOLSTEIN.
I must be missing something here. Please explain.
And the EPD situation is an ANGUS thing. Not an issue in other breeds that I know of. At least not my breed.

In the angus breed you have an EN value, several things are involved in calulating that, milk being one of them. If there is too much weight gain it is reflected in the EN value going in a negative direction, which means the calf is not efficient. I guess mainly I am concerned with heifers I would keep from a breeding like this. A steer wouldn't matter. The top bull right now in $B has about $1+ on the EN value, if I remember right he is about 15 on milk. Take another to bull that has close to the same $B and he has a -$12 on the EN, that is a loss of $13 in feed effieciency, partly due to about a 28 on milk. So what I am getting at is if I have an efficient cow that I want to flush, I don't want to ruin the calves EPD with too high or too low a milk number, I want to see about the same growth as I would see out of the donor.
 

4CTophand

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[/quote]
HELLO!!!! WOW!!! Where to begin, the donor does not raise the calf, the recip does, so if the recip has crappy milk, how is she going to raise a good calf? Just because the donor has good milk does not mean the calf will be fine if raised by a recip with crappy milk. In the same type senario, what if the recip has way too much milk and raises an oversized calf, which would not happen if the calf was raised by the donor with normal milking ability? What good would it do me to raise a calf that was too big or too scrawny? [/quote]

An average milking donor should do a good job and she doesnt have to be that great in other areas especially if you aren't planning on keeping her in that program long. Milking ability alone doesnt make a good calf ---hence embryo transfer ---- Genetics!
 

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