Recip Cows

[ClinchValley86]

Other than buying embryos of desired genetics, people also sell pregnancies - recip's that are examined/confirmed pregnant with an embryo. Sometimes with sex determined by sexed semen or by ultrasound. Can be a little pricey, but removes most of the risk of will the embryo take and what will be the sex. Just need to see the recip cow. Sometimes people will put embryos in some pretty low quality cows. Half crippled, poor milking recips don't contribute genetics to the embryo calf, but can sure seem like it at weaning time.

interesting! The $500 price tag sounds much better, though it may be unrealistic.

What is the acceptable success rate for ET? Assuming you've got good fertile recips?

Is there any/much epigenetic type transfer to the calf from the recip cow?

 

[simme]

interesting! The $500 price tag sounds much better, though it may be unrealistic.

What is the acceptable success rate for ET? Assuming you've got good fertile recips?

Is there any/much epigenetic type transfer to the calf from the recip cow?

That experience back in the 80's is my only direct experience with embryos. Others can respond with better data in recent times. But many people do the ivf process now. In the early days of ivf, I always heard that the results were not as good as conventional. And my personal experience long ago was direct fresh transfer on the farm (not frozen and transferred later). My understanding is that fresh is better than frozen and conventional is better than ivf. I think that experience of getting 17 settled out of about 22 was excellent and unrealistic to expect as an average. For purchased embryos sold in a package of 3, some people get 1. Some get 2 and some even get 3. Or maybe more - embryos can split into twins so possible to get 2 for 1. Won't be any freemartins there since splits will be the same sex.

Also, embryos are sorted and graded when they are collected. There will be #1's (best) and #2's (not as good) and I think #3's which are discarded. If you purchase embryos, you want to know that they are all #1's or if there are some #2's. Value and success is different for each. I have "heard" that sometimes people will sell #1's but the buyer receives some #2's. When the person thaws them, what recourse does the buyer have if he finds they are #2's? I am getting past my knowledge. Someone else needs to chime in. Or better yet, talk to an experienced embryologist to get the real truth and the whole truth.

Yeah, I hear that there is some effect from the recip, but that is above my knowledge level.

 

[sgreear]

Are your animals special?

What makes the cost and effort justified?

My animals are not special. Fertilized embryo to get what I'm looking for. Carrier is just a carrier. I'm more than likely dreaming. More than likely just get a bull to breed them. I'm not looking to flush mine

 

[sgreear]

With 3 heifers, I assume you would want to purchase frozen embryos and pay someone to put them in your heifers (instead of paying someone to breed your cow, collect embryos and transfer them into your other cows). Prices to purchase embryos have a lot of variation. As cheap as $150 to as much as $1200 (or more) each is pretty common, depending on the genetics and reputation (and maybe politics) of the dam and sire. The lower cost might reflect embryos that were collected/frozen years ago and are just not as popular now as they once were. Or dam is not as well known. Does not mean that they are "bad genetics". Supply and demand and promotion figures into embryo prices. They are often sold as a package of 3 with a guarantee of 1 pregnancy IF "put in" by a "certified" (or competent, various terms may be used) person. Or a package of 5 with a guarantee of 2 pregnancies. Price to hire someone to put them in depends on finding someone willing to travel to your place and how far that is. You may find someone that will do them for $50 to $100 dollars each. Distance and how many you do per trip will affect that price. Would need to have all 3 synchronized for heats in line with the time the person is available. Typically put in 7 days after the cow was in heat, I think. (cow is typically "flushed" 7 days after breeding to allow the embryo to grow inside the cow before collection. So inserting 7 days after the recip was in heat matches up the reproductive tracts/stages between donor and recip.) I think I have all that right.

I was talking with someone recently that has highlands they were going to AI breed. I asked about availability of semen since the main semen companies carry mostly mainstream breeds. They told me that highland semen they use needs to be purchased directly from the bull owner and is typically $500 to $1000 per straw. WOW! So, I don't know anything about availability or prices of longhorn embryos. Numbers I am throwing around are typical of angus, simmental and such.

I would not buy Long Horn embryos or semen. I'd prob do Wagu embryo and semen

 

[sgreear]

Other than buying embryos of desired genetics, people also sell pregnancies - recip's that are examined/confirmed pregnant with an embryo. Sometimes with sex determined by sexed semen or by ultrasound. Can be a little pricey, but removes most of the risk of will the embryo take and what will be the sex. Just need to see the recip cow. Sometimes people will put embryos in some pretty low quality cows. Half crippled, poor milking recips don't contribute genetics to the embryo calf, but can sure seem like it at weaning time.

Exactly what I was thinking and after

 

[ClinchValley86]

That experience back in the 80's is my only direct experience with embryos. Others can respond with better data in recent times. But many people do the ivf process now. In the early days of ivf, I always heard that the results were not as good as conventional. And my personal experience long ago was direct fresh transfer on the farm (not frozen and transferred later). My understanding is that fresh is better than frozen and conventional is better than ivf. I think that experience of getting 17 settled out of about 22 was excellent and unrealistic to expect as an average. For purchased embryos sold in a package of 3, some people get 1. Some get 2 and some even get 3. Or maybe more - embryos can split into twins so possible to get 2 for 1. Won't be any freemartins there since splits will be the same sex.

Also, embryos are sorted and graded when they are collected. There will be #1's (best) and #2's (not as good) and I think #3's which are discarded. If you purchase embryos, you want to know that they are all #1's or if there are some #2's. Value and success is different for each. I have "heard" that sometimes people will sell #1's but the buyer receives some #2's. When the person thaws them, what recourse does the buyer have if he finds they are #2's? I am getting past my knowledge. Someone else needs to chime in. Or better yet, talk to an experienced embryologist to get the real truth and the whole truth.

Yeah, I hear that there is some effect from the recip, but that is above my knowledge level.

You're level of knowledge is a plenty, my friend.

 

[J+ Cattle]

They don't have to be expensive View attachment 52557
https://www.sirebuyer.com/angus-embryos/ Sirebuyer has a lot of breeds and a lot of classified listings.

Be careful what you purchase, I have seen some of these inexpensive embryos advertised that are extremely low-grade IVF embryos that I'm told should NOT have been frozen to begin with and come with no guarantee of pregnancy. If you're not knowledgeable in the subject consult someone more knowledgeable before making a purchase.

Now the legal disclaimer: I have no knowledge of this particular advertisement that was shown, and my reply was not directed towards it.

 

[SBMF 2015]

Be careful what you purchase, I have seen some of these inexpensive embryos advertised that are extremely low-grade IVF embryos that I'm told should NOT have been frozen to begin with and come with no guarantee of pregnancy. If you're not knowledgeable in the subject consult someone more knowledgeable before making a purchase.

Now the legal disclaimer: I have no knowledge of this particular advertisement that was shown, and my reply was not directed towards it.

There could be a very expensive learning curve for people who have little to no knowledge of embryos.

Good advice.

 

[redcowsrule33]

My thing with embryos is there's no guarantee that the resulting calf is any better than what I already have. Unless I can see the results of a previous mating I'm hesitant. Never know how a mating clicks.

 

[Travlr]

There could be a very expensive learning curve for people who have little to no knowledge of embryos.

Good advice.

And not any downside to the people that take the money...

 

[Travlr]

My thing with embryos is there's no guarantee that the resulting calf is any better than what I already have. Unless I can see the results of a previous mating I'm hesitant. Never know how a mating clicks.

There are probably over a billion different ways the same genetic materials from any pair of cattle can combine. So it's a crap shoot anyways.

But it is pretty amazing how often you get great animals from great animals and only rarely get burned.

 

[SBMF 2015]

My thing with embryos is there's no guarantee that the resulting calf is any better than what I already have. Unless I can see the results of a previous mating I'm hesitant. Never know how a mating clicks.

Yes, I understand your point. But that's like saying you wouldn't buy a bull until you had a set of calves from him on the ground.
Embryos your only committing a few cows, a new bull is a whole herd commitment or at least a larger %

 

[littletom]

What i'm seeing pretty much all time. Is the type of embryos Im interested in ivf is only thing being offered. Last year we were 4 of 4 a set of conventual first one is due next week. This particular cow I went to sale saw 4 heifers by 2 different sires. I loved them bid just could not afford them. So I'm playing the long game hoping to get lucky. We were around 60% on the other ivf last year with some being sexed.
Steered 2 et bulls last week that were not what I hoped for. No sure thing. I'm buying better genetics than I have or could other wise afford different route. Hoping some luck finds me. I am using my better commercial cows as recips. And watching heats and letting that dictate some of exactly when they go in. We set them up if there heat does not line up. We don't put one in them that round. It's intersting and fun. Probely not for everyone.

 

[CharleyCap]

So you are saying that if you have 2 healthy calves you will have 2200$ per calf if you fig all your expenses. And you hoped to be $1100 per calf? Thank you for your post above.

thats if they all got pregnant, doubt they will

recap: 1 beef master heifer just bred with a straw and 2 cows with embryo's (or not, have not checked them yet to see if they took)
so $829

Did they come with any kind of live calf guarantee?

nope

 

[CharleyCap]

So you are saying that if you have 2 healthy calves you will have 2200$ per calf if you fig all your expenses. And you hoped to be $1100 per calf? Thank you for your post above.

that is $2369 per calf if I don't count an earlier failure this year. learning some lessons

we were using 3 cows total. Facility was 829 plus $750 for each embryo $1500( 2-$20 =$40 straws wasted and 2 embryos so that's with 3 head being impregnated ), and God I hope I get one Chianina out of it

the embryos are 100% full blood Chianina, I would of bought them as yearlings if any were for sale anywhere near me. My long term goal is to mix the Chianina with the akaushi, I know I can sell that to boutique Houston area restaurants, we are the restaurant capital of the world

Recap: 2 straws that got wasted $40 + $1500 for 2 embryos+ facility (that failed)829= $2369 (if it comes to term) Then I didn't tell you earlier this year I bought 2 Holsteins that each used $750 embryos wasted there too don't even want to admit that failure, lot more to that story

my mistakes were #1, don't mess with the Holsteins as recips, now I know, sold them at auction. #2, the employee ran facility had 5 swings at the plate and only one appears to take. soo I fired them

I switched facilities to an owner operated outfit, embryologist that for sure does not want to fail. I got my show heifer beef master over there getting a straw from a handsome bull. a lot better price and only $40 from a high dollar bull. if it takes , I will have $200 in it plus the diesel I burned driving there

 

[CharleyCap]

Did they come with any kind of live calf guarantee?

no sir