Real Breeders

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CopeMan

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jscunn":1lva1vlg said:
Doc brought up an interesting topic for discussion. Who are the real breeders in each breed. I am talking about long term programs that have a plan and a vision. Second question who will the next batch of true breeders be.

I will start

Angus

Stevenson Basin
Gardiners
Sitz
Wehrman
Sydenstricker
Shosone

Hereford

Remitall (maybe gone soon)
Cooper
Holden

Now each of these programs are different some very different. But they all seem to take care of their core customers which is why they have all been in business for a long time. Now who will still be around 20 years from now??


Stevenson Basin split. There is now Stevenson Genetics, and the other is Basin Angus. They also are, or already have dispersed there Red Angus herd. Gardiner is a great outfit to, very top notch. Wehrman Angus in VA is an awesome angus operation, Richard McClung, the manager is a smart man when it comes to cattle and Angus. I live right on the VA line and I have to plug Va raised cattle, Joel Walters, the producer of the American Rancher show on RFD-TV told me that when he did the episode on the Pitchfork Ranch in Guthrie, TX that the manager Ron Lane kept telling him the "Virginia bulls" in Pitchforks large bull battery outperformed and got around there rough country better than any. I can say Richard McClung was very happy to hear this. On another note, such ranches as the R.A. Brown Ranch , they have great Angus cattle, some of the best. But Ive been told by one of there co-op producers that they are now moving a great deal toward producing more Red Angus, and plan to have just as many or more Red Angus available in the sale this year as they would Black Angus. I Salute!! If it sells, and there is a demand! Kudos, I like those red angus!
 

Brandonm22

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I know I have an Alabama bias and I have not traveled enough to properly compare breeders from all over the country; but both Tennessee River Music and Debters breed good cattle. Sometimes over the years TRM has chased the show ring a little too much for my taste; but if you look at the totality of their program which ranges from showy cattle like Thor and CS Boomer too more functional cattle like Missle, KPH Phase, Grand Finale, and Kudzu too co-owning much of the Trask cattle with Clemson I think they have something for everyone and I have found them pretty easy too deal with. Debter has much more of a commercial focus and far less variation in the lines in which they deal; but if you want functional Line 1 genetics in volume they have it. I am sure other states have very comparable breeders. Maybe I am just lazy; BUT I would really have to flat out LOVE the cattle up in Canada or Montana for me to drive that far hauling live cattle back from a sale. I am much less knowledgable about the Angus breeders in our state but both Ray and BoBo seem to have most of the popular bloodlines in enough quantity too satisfy most people's needs.
 

Herefords.US

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Brandonm22":wtxqqj0a said:
Debter has much more of a commercial focus and far less variation in the lines in which they deal; but if you want functional Line 1 genetics in volume they have it. I am sure other states have very comparable breeders.

Debter has great Line 1 Herefords, as do many other breeders in the country. It is my belief that the Line 1 cattle have become so diverse and widely bred that many have actually become too heterozygous in their genetic makeup. I think the next "great breeder" of Line 1 cattle will likely be the one that decides to tighten up those genetics by taking the most favorable animals for the traits he/she is breeding for and intensifying them in those traits through closebreeding.

George
 

greenwillowhereford II

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Herefords.US":3ui1mdtt said:
Brandonm22":3ui1mdtt said:
Debter has much more of a commercial focus and far less variation in the lines in which they deal; but if you want functional Line 1 genetics in volume they have it. I am sure other states have very comparable breeders.

Debter has great Line 1 Herefords, as do many other breeders in the country. It is my belief that the Line 1 cattle have become so diverse and widely bred that many have actually become too heterozygous in their genetic makeup. I think the next "great breeder" of Line 1 cattle will likely be the one that decides to tighten up those genetics by taking the most favorable animals for the traits he/she is breeding for and intensifying them in those traits through closebreeding.

George

Good call. I think you are right. I've been less than favorable about Line Ones at times, but what you suggest could make me like them more.
 

blackangus

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I am new here and just came across this post but wanted to add my 2 cents!

REDLAND ANGUS in Wyoming seems to be the up and coming commercial cattlemens place to buy bulls.
 

alexfarms

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ND Angus":juad330l said:
Angus

LaGrand
Frey
Vollmer
Schaff
Myers

Hereford
Rockman
Carter

Char.

Miller
Holen
Bina

Chi

Schafer

Just my opinion.

Do you have any info on Rockman? Is this some of the descendants of Lloyd Rockman? Or is it Rockeman?
 

lcc

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stevnson have the greatest deal. the best place in the world. . they will be here forever. Gard. angus what leader they are. they will out live us all. Sitz great ranch at harrison &dillon.they will last. Cooper &Holden the best hereford cattle ever. all of these ranches will be in hall of fame.
 

bigbull338

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the truth is theres alot of well known seedstock breeders in every breed.i know in the beefmasters theres to meny well known breeder programs to name.an yes i know quiet a few big name breeders.
 

capt

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A very interesting question and very truly one that has the potential to cause a lot of BS to fly when there is no need. I would suggest, if I may, to change the question to who is a breeder and who is a multiplier. IMHO, most of the angus 'breeders' listed I would not necessarily call breeders but rather multipliers. I am not saying they do not have a program or are very successful in what they offer. I just don't agree with calling all of them a breeder. To make it interesting I will pony up and say two Angus outfits I would call breeders would be Jorgensen and Sinclair(N Bar included). Possibly also Green Garden Angus and Nichols Farms. Hereford side I would suggest Meitler, K&B, Pedretti, Jamison, Jim Lents, Frank Felton. No doubt that all or even anyone would agree with me, but to me there is a significant difference between being a breeder and being a multiplier. The future breeders in my mind are those with a plan in place, an understanding of mathematical statistics, a keen knowledge of animal breeding principles, the ability to evaluate cattle objectively and possess the discipline to keep the good and cull the bad.
 

lcc

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When I posted I used the breeders on the list. I can't undersand why anyone would call the breeders i picked to be muitipliers? On the Hereford K&b, pedeetti, and Jamisson are great cattlemen. K & b are some of the best breeders of Hereford cattle and the most honest. The Angus breeders listed latter follow thier predisders.
 

capt

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When I made my statement about the angus breeders I did not say all of them listed, I intended to say that not all of those in the original list posted that I would agree with calling them breeders. To me a breeder has to consider the entire animal and how its fits a program defined by that breeder. Since in my mind there is no perfect animal, you assess the positive and negative traits for that animal and mate them to an animal that you feel has the best chance at fixing or complementing those traits. The resulting crop of calves then needs to be sorted and evaluated as to how they meet the program criteria. For example, structurally sound cattle that are profitable in a western range environment with minimal annual precipitation might be the program they need to fit. To me the difference between a breeder and a mulitplier is the breeder raises cattle considering all environment as well as genetic factors to make a complete animal and having the discipline to cull those that do not fit or are not good enough and a multiplier copies what is being done on a large or small scale. Being a muliplier is not to be considered a demeaning term, it just means to me that they are copying what others have done without the discipline of a program or the discipline to cull those animals that do not fit the goal of the program. I am not sure the words I have chosen will convey my meaning, but hopefully so. lcc, I am not sure what your last sentence refers to. what is a predisder?
 

Herefords.US

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capt":278pdvjg said:
When I made my statement about the angus breeders I did not say all of them listed, I intended to say that not all of those in the original list posted that I would agree with calling them breeders. To me a breeder has to consider the entire animal and how its fits a program defined by that breeder. Since in my mind there is no perfect animal, you assess the positive and negative traits for that animal and mate them to an animal that you feel has the best chance at fixing or complementing those traits. The resulting crop of calves then needs to be sorted and evaluated as to how they meet the program criteria. For example, structurally sound cattle that are profitable in a western range environment with minimal annual precipitation might be the program they need to fit. To me the difference between a breeder and a mulitplier is the breeder raises cattle considering all environment as well as genetic factors to make a complete animal and having the discipline to cull those that do not fit or are not good enough and a multiplier copies what is being done on a large or small scale. Being a muliplier is not to be considered a demeaning term, it just means to me that they are copying what others have done without the discipline of a program or the discipline to cull those animals that do not fit the goal of the program. I am not sure the words I have chosen will convey my meaning, but hopefully so. lcc, I am not sure what your last sentence refers to. what is a predisder?

capt, I believe the correct spelling of the word lcc used would be "predecessors".

George
 

capt

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Thanks, George. I try not to assume a persons intent when choosing their words and I appreciate the help with understanding that sentence. That being said, I guess my next question is what breeders would be following the originals? I can plainly see Sinclair being called N Bar's predecessor. but I would say also that they are continuing the original program and discipline of the N Bar program. I would also suggest that most of the angus breeders out there are following the program put in place at Green Garden Angus. I am willing to say that someone possibly had that in place prior to Green Garden, but to my recollection the first I remember anyone spelling out the program specifically it was Green Garden. There are absolutely breeders in my mind in that first list and there are absolutely multipliers as well. Being big and beautiful and lasting a long time is great, but there is more than that to being a breeder or a multiplier. What constitutes the difference between a breeder and a multiplier in everyone elses mind?
 

Ned Jr.

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capt":22yqf9li said:
What constitutes the difference between a breeder and a multiplier in everyone elses mind?

I pretty much agree with everything you've been saying capt. I think a breeder is one who has a vision of the type of cattle he wants. A breeder stays on the path to get to where he wants to be without veering and takes every trait into consideration. A breeder also breeds for what fits his and his customers environment.

My definition of a multiplier would be one who belongs to the bull of the month club. One who breeds with no real idea of what their breeding for. The breeders that only use the most highly promoted bulls at the time hoping they can reproduce what others did.

I was very glad to see Pedretti's and Jamison's had been put on the real breeders list by others, I agree 100%.
 

Herefords.US

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Ned Jr.":bhlmduzz said:
capt":bhlmduzz said:
What constitutes the difference between a breeder and a multiplier in everyone elses mind?

I was very glad to see Pedretti's and Jamison's had been put on the real breeders list by others, I agree 100%.

I'm sure everyone has a different level where the distinction between a "breeder" and a "multiplier" is made. My level has very little to do with whether I like their cattle. For instance, I would put Jim Lents and Frank Felton in the "breeders" category, but I have no desire to use their cattle in my program. On the other hand, I have cattle in my herd from Star Lake and DeShazer and I would consider both as "multipliers" at this point.

Regarding Pedretti and Jamison, a question for Ned and any others who have actually seen their herds and are familiar with their breeding philosophies, what makes these people "breeders" rather than "multipliers" who have jumped on the Cooper/Holden Line 1 bandwagon? What differences, if any, do they have in their breeding philosophies than that of Cooper and/or Holden? Does Cooper and Holden have any differences - from each other or from the original Miles City Line 1 philosophy?

George
 

mnmtranching

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What about all the small breeders that have been using the same A.I. as the big guys for years. They don't do a lot of advertising or wine and dine the prospective clients like the big guys. Maybe don't put bulls on test like the big guys. They will likely sell their bulls for $1000's less then the famous breeders.

So the little guys aren't REAL breeders. :lol: :lol:
 

smnherf

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Interesting topic and I am sure that everyone has their own philosphy about different breeders over the years and the tendency to put some big breeders up on pedestals, but I want to caution people about that. Name shouln't mean anything when purchasing bulls. Look at the status of the Hereford breed over the past 30 years and the direction it went and the problems the Hereford breed is known for and I would venture to say that some of these 'big name reputation" breeders were some of the biggest offenders of propegating problems. All in the name of money.

Brian
 

capt

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George, Brian and mnmtranching have all made very good points and I am going to try and address some of these points.

First of all, mnmtranching, I don't believe for a second that the scope of an operation has anything at all to do with its philosophy and breeding practices. Large or small makes no matter to me, what does matter is the knowledge of the herd and how to take it in the desired direction.

Brian, excellent points, name shouldn't mean a thing when buying bulls, but the fact remains that it does. Not right in my opinion but so far hasn't changed, yet. That goes for other breeds as well as Hereford. And I would also venture to say that the purveyors of problems in the last thirty years are mostly gone from the breed they created the problems in. Most recent current events not included, but I do not consider discovering a genetic defect or owning a bull possessing a defect to be the creator of the problem. The problem in my mind lies in how that defect is handled and reported to customers as well as breed representatives. Money IS the root of all evil and therefore is an empty argument.

George, I will try to answer your question and if Ned wants to add or correct anything I type in here, I would welcome his input. First of all, let me say that I have had the opportunity over the last sixteen years to do quite a bit of traveling viewing Hereford and Angus seedstock operations as well as a few other breeds. Most of the breeders mentioned in this thread are included in that bunch, but not all of them. I will say right now, my only trips to California have been vacation related and not business. I would very much like to make it to Pedretti's someday and see the cowherd. I have had the opportunity to visit with Gino Pedretti and talk about the breed and understand his program and dedication to improvement. As such I am confident in the very least that he fits my definition of a breeder. I have seen cattle of his influence several different places and there is a deifinite type and 'look' to them that convinces me he knows what he is doing as far as fixing traits and a type to his cattle. I will say the exact same thing about Cooper's. Pictures will not do justice to the quality of that cowherd especially when it comes to udders. Jack and Mark Cooper both have done an outstanding job of sticking to their breeding plan and fixing a 'type and look' when it comes to their cows. That comes with persistence and discipline over a long period. Change does not happen fast in the beef cow world. Jamison's have also done an outstanding job of selecting and breeding Line One cattle to function in a very consistent manner. There are few seedstock people I have ever had the opportunity to visit with that can sit down with you and recall complete notes and descriptions of not only bulls but cows that influenced the breed 30 to 40 years ago. That kind of knowledge and recall is very important when mating cattle and pushing for genetic improvement. Jack Holden possesses that same kind of recall in my mind. The thing that really stands out for me with these breeders, and I will call them breeders, is the fact that I can differ on opinion with any of them they have stuck to their plan, kept the good ones, culled the bad ones and will stand behind their product. They have been nothing but honest and forthright with me and my questions, criticisms, and concerns. All of the ones I listed in my 'breeders category would be the same. As far as differentiating whether or not they all 'followed Miles city' or not, I will answer that this way. If I remember correctly the mandate for research at "Miles City" (Fort Keogh Livestock and Range Research Laboratory) was to select for increased growth in Hereford cattle to one year of age. Kind of sounds like single trait selection a little bit, but I will be the first to admit that the environment at Miles City does not allow single trait selection. They would have all died out there long ago if that was true!! Holden, Jamison, Cooper and Pedretti as well as many other breeders, large and small, have SELECTED cattle from the research at Fort Keogh LARRL to influence and contribute to their breeding programs. I emphasize Selection because it is one of foundations on which to improve genetics. Whether you like the Miles City cattle or not, the genes within those cattle have been fixed and are very repeatable which is highly valuable in my mind.

I will say that the difference between a breeder and a multiplier is very distinct and in my mind there is nothing wrong with being a multiplier. There is nothing out there that says those genetics will not breed true. That is what makes genetics so interesting to me. We are only starting to gain more and more knowledge and to me that is the ultimate goal, to gain knowledge and make improvement. As for me, I will choose to go the route that has been the most repeatable and that will include linebreeding, both in Herefords and Angus. Hope I have answered some questions, created something to think about, not stepped on anyones toes and I really look forward to hearing some more from others perspective.
 

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