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Warren Allison

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Not every registered black hereford is homozygous black. So if you bred a hetero BH to an angus cow, every calf would be black, but 25% would be red carriers.

There is also quite a number of them that won't produce a 100% white faced calf crop.
And, if you breed that bull to commercial Angus cows that may be heterozygous for black, you could actually end up with 25% of the crop being red baldies, too! Last year, when I was helping my client select the Black Hereford bull semen, to breed their Brangus cows too, we picked semen from the tested homozygous black bulls. I don't recall seeing any in the catalogs, that weren't. Any bulls for sale (and they did buy 2) had the same info available. They have also this year, bought about 18 or 20 registered Black Hereford cows, and all of these were tested homozygous for black. So, you can avoid using Black Hereford cows or bulls, that are heterozygous for black.
 

Muddy

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A good percentage of black Herefords that isn't homozygous for white face gene. It wasn't that uncommon of several black Herefords producing full solid calves.
 

Ky hills

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A good percentage of black Herefords that isn't homozygous for white face gene. It wasn't that uncommon of several black Herefords producing full solid calves.
That’s true. There are also several folks that have had solid colored calves out of registered red Herefords too.
 

Warren Allison

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Ky Hills- Your 2 replies to my posts, as usual, are very informative, and contain information that is derived from your own real-life experience. That is why I respect what you say, and nearly always agree with you. I see your point that other breeds have taken advantage of the CAB program, but I don't know if that has been detrimental to the goals of the AAA. In order to get Brangus, Black Hereford, Chi-Angus, the black Simmentals and Black Gelbievs, Limosines, etc, they had to use homozygous Black Angus cattle to do so. This further increased the demand for homozygous Black Angus breeding stock. People don't raise herds of registered Angus cattle to slaughter,, they raise them for seed stock. When the CAB was created, it was to increase the value of black angus market steers, which created the need for registered, homozygous Black angus cattle. And ,. it really didn't matter if these seed stock cattle were used on commercial angus, or commercial cattle of other breeds.. you needed homozygous black angus to insure your whole calf crop was black and had the carcass scores, like the correct marbling, to earn the CAB certification. So, to me, other breeds taking advantage of the CAB, was not hurting the AAA, but rather increasing the demand for homozygous black AAA registered cattle. I think red Angus are awesome animals, and maybe a higher percentage of registered red angus cattle , do produce the carcass characteristics that the CAB strives for. If you have a herd of commercial red angus cattle, and use a homozygous black bull.. Angus, Brangus, black Simmental...whatever.. you will most likely have a higher percentage of the calf crop that will have the carcass characteristics, as well as the black hide, for CAB. There for, it seems to me, that these are even MORE reasons for the AAA to strive for homozygous black, and to exclude red angus from THIS registry. And, it seems like a very good idea for the Red Angus registry to exist, as well, to preserve the foundation qualities of the original Angus. I see your point in that breeding for color, may have resulted in the loss of some foundation Angus traits in AAA registered cattle. I have seen this to be true in some of the colored horse registries.. APHC appaloosas are the best examples. You mentioned DNA testing for Angus genetics. I think time constraints would prevent this for CAB certification of carcasses, and would be contrary to the goals of the AAA when they created the CAB program, so don't know why AAA would want to do this as part of the CAB.. However, if enough people felt like they wanted an Angus registry that included both red and black, like some have said angus registries in other countries do, then perhaps they could create a Foundation Angus, or Heritage Angus, association, that required DNA testing for 100% Angus blood, regardless of hide color. Dunno what the value would be in today's beef market, but it could be a way to preserve the original angus characteristics for the purists. And of course, any of these cattle, or their offspring from crosses, that were black, would still be CAB eligible.
 

Ky hills

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And, if you breed that bull to commercial Angus cows that may be heterozygous for black, you could actually end up with 25% of the crop being red baldies, too! Last year, when I was helping my client select the Black Hereford bull semen, to breed their Brangus cows too, we picked semen from the tested homozygous black bulls. I don't recall seeing any in the catalogs, that weren't. Any bulls for sale (and they did buy 2) had the same info available. They have also this year, bought about 18 or 20 registered Black Hereford cows, and all of these were tested homozygous for black. So, you can avoid using Black Hereford cows or bulls, that are heterozygous for black.
That’s true, you can breed around and avoid heterozygous black, but they are a reality within several breeds including Black Herefords. That is the same point that I and others have been making in regards to the topic of red Angus.
From what I hear there is some interest in black Herefords locally. I would be interested in knowing how the black Hereford sired calves from those Brangus calves perform and sell, would also like to see a side by side comparison of some sired but traditional Hereford bulls as well.
 

Ky hills

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Ky Hills- Your 2 replies to my posts, as usual, are very informative, and contain information that is derived from your own real-life experience. That is why I respect what you say, and nearly always agree with you. I see your point that other breeds have taken advantage of the CAB program, but I don't know if that has been detrimental to the goals of the AAA. In order to get Brangus, Black Hereford, Chi-Angus, the black Simmentals and Black Gelbievs, Limosines, etc, they had to use homozygous Black Angus cattle to do so. This further increased the demand for homozygous Black Angus breeding stock. People don't raise herds of registered Angus cattle to slaughter,, they raise them for seed stock. When the CAB was created, it was to increase the value of black angus market steers, which created the need for registered, homozygous Black angus cattle. And ,. it really didn't matter if these seed stock cattle were used on commercial angus, or commercial cattle of other breeds.. you needed homozygous black angus to insure your whole calf crop was black and had the carcass scores, like the correct marbling, to earn the CAB certification. So, to me, other breeds taking advantage of the CAB, was not hurting the AAA, but rather increasing the demand for homozygous black AAA registered cattle. I think red Angus are awesome animals, and maybe a higher percentage of registered red angus cattle , do produce the carcass characteristics that the CAB strives for. If you have a herd of commercial red angus cattle, and use a homozygous black bull.. Angus, Brangus, black Simmental...whatever.. you will most likely have a higher percentage of the calf crop that will have the carcass characteristics, as well as the black hide, for CAB. There for, it seems to me, that these are even MORE reasons for the AAA to strive for homozygous black, and to exclude red angus from THIS registry. And, it seems like a very good idea for the Red Angus registry to exist, as well, to preserve the foundation qualities of the original Angus. I see your point in that breeding for color, may have resulted in the loss of some foundation Angus traits in AAA registered cattle. I have seen this to be true in some of the colored horse registries.. APHC appaloosas are the best examples. You mentioned DNA testing for Angus genetics. I think time constraints would prevent this for CAB certification of carcasses, and would be contrary to the goals of the AAA when they created the CAB program, so don't know why AAA would want to do this as part of the CAB.. However, if enough people felt like they wanted an Angus registry that included both red and black, like some have said angus registries in other countries do, then perhaps they could create a Foundation Angus, or Heritage Angus, association, that required DNA testing for 100% Angus blood, regardless of hide color. Dunno what the value would be in today's beef market, but it could be a way to preserve the original angus characteristics for the purists. And of course, any of these cattle, or their offspring from crosses, that were black, would still be CAB eligible.
Thank you and likewise. I agree too that the ship has sailed as far as a merging of the AAA and the ARAA, The folks that made that decision long ago to exclude red angus had their reasoning and logic even though I think it’s plum stupid, that is what they did and no going back now.
As for DNA proof of Angus genetics for CAB, that is an issue that some want to pursue. I honestly don’t see it happening anytime soon if ever as it hasn’t gained a lot of traction. There are lots of registered Angus herds that sell their calves as commercial to be fed out. Not every purebred calf is or should be sold for breeding stock. There are too many, animals marketed for breeding purposes that should be sold as feeders.
I also agree that on the surface it does look like other breeds are taking advantage of CAB, and that is certainly debatable. The reality is most breeds except Angus and Herefords are relatively new to the US and breeding up programs were and are used within their registry’s where as Angus and Hereford have closed herdbooks. The breeds like Simmentals, Limousins etc, have many black hided animals and so there is nothing that discredits them from the black hided part of CAB.
On the subject of breed purity that is a real hot button topic in regards to both Angus and Herefords as many including myself tend to think outside breeds have been incorporated into both breeds at multiple points in time.
 

Warren Allison

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That’s true. There are also several folks that have had solid colored calves out of registered red Herefords too.
Thinking back on a comment you made above in this thread , about combining the Polled Hereford Association with the Horned Hereford Association, in which you mentioned that some breeders were opposed , as they felt the polled gene came from other breeds, and was indicative of a " _______ in the woodpile". Has there been any Horned Hereford to Horned Hereford breedings that produced solid red calves?
 
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Ky hills

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Thinking back on a comment you made above in this thread , about combining the Polled Hereford Association with the Horned Hereford Association, in which yu mentioned that some breeders were opposed , as they felt the polled gene came from other breeds, and was indicative of a " _______ in the woodpile". Has there been any Horned Hereford to Horned Hereford breedings that produced solid red calves?
Maybe someone else can answer that from experience, as I have no experience with true horned Herefords. I have heard of several instances of folks having solid calves from polled Herefords and I have had a couple calves with nearly solid coloring on their face. I also have had some other odd marked and off colored calves from polled Hereford bulls. Had two calves from a bull and certain line of cows that produced calves with white vertical stripe down their shoulder along with a lot of white on each of his calves. The most recent Hereford bull I purchased was polled yet must have had horned genetics somewhere close as several of his calves were horned. Several more of the calves were a lighter color almost like a diluter from the old time Simmentals.
 

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Holstein breeders years ago would knock a red/white calf in the head too. Had a red/white cattle registry that were not all Holsteins, but any dairy cattle that were red/white and were not registered in other breeds. The red/white Holsteins are now included in the Holstein registry. Funny thing is that the red& whites are often as good or better milkers in several of the herds I test than the b&w's......There are about 10-15 color patterns of Old English Game Bantams.... VERY DIFFERENT specific color patterns.... but they are all still O.E. Game Bantams.....
 

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Thinking back on a comment you made above in this thread , about combining the Polled Hereford Association with the Horned Hereford Association, in which you mentioned that some breeders were opposed , as they felt the polled gene came from other breeds,
Generally accepted origin of polled herefords is from a natural genetic mutation from (horned) Herefords. Of course, there have been later unauthorized infusions of outside blood as has been done in other breeds.

"Polled Herefords were developed from the horned Hereford breed which was founded in the mid-18th century by the farmers of Hereford County, England. Among the horned Herefords an occasional calf would be born which did not develop horns. This change from parents' characteristics is known as a "mutation." These cattle soon came to be called "polled," which means naturally hornless.
Warren Gammon, a young Iowa Hereford breeder from Des Moines, originated Polled Herefords. He seized upon the idea of producing the hornless cattle after seeing some on exhibition at the Trans-Mississippi World Fair in Omaha, Nebraska, in 1898.
Three years later, Gammon established the Polled Hereford breed registry with 11 head of naturally hornless whiteface cattle he had located and purchased. These Herefords were registered in the American Hereford Association, but were not identified as to their polled characteristic. Therefore, Gammon formed the American Polled Hereford Cattle Club to maintain a separate record of purebred Polled Hereford registrations.
Thus, in 1901, the Polled Hereford breed came into being with 11 registrations on record. In 1907, the pioneer breeders of Polled Herefords incorporated their organization, with headquarters in the Gammon home in Des Moines. Gammon served as executive secretary until 1921."


Like a lot of breeds, early selection was based on a single trait (polled) in order to find enough animals to start a polled registry. Because of single trait selection, quality of the animals was sometimes less than the horned version. Resulting in years of genetic improvement required to catch up with the horned ones. Same thing happened with the red and spotted simmental cattle when they were first "converted" to black. In the early days, black animals were selected due to being the desired black color without enough attention to other traits. So, the black animals were often inferior quality to the reds and spotted in many regards. 30 years later, it is now more of an issue to find many top red simmentals - appears that the black ones are often the higher quality. A lot of the red simmentals now have lower milk and docility (at least the EPD's) - traits that the original red simmentals excelled in.
 

Muddy

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That’s true. There are also several folks that have had solid colored calves out of registered red Herefords too.
I got two almost solid red calves out of the Hereford bulls last spring. Just a little white dime sized spot on the forehead.
 

Ky hills

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Generally accepted origin of polled herefords is from a natural genetic mutation from (horned) Herefords. Of course, there have been later unauthorized infusions of outside blood as has been done in other breeds.

"Polled Herefords were developed from the horned Hereford breed which was founded in the mid-18th century by the farmers of Hereford County, England. Among the horned Herefords an occasional calf would be born which did not develop horns. This change from parents' characteristics is known as a "mutation." These cattle soon came to be called "polled," which means naturally hornless.
Warren Gammon, a young Iowa Hereford breeder from Des Moines, originated Polled Herefords. He seized upon the idea of producing the hornless cattle after seeing some on exhibition at the Trans-Mississippi World Fair in Omaha, Nebraska, in 1898.
Three years later, Gammon established the Polled Hereford breed registry with 11 head of naturally hornless whiteface cattle he had located and purchased. These Herefords were registered in the American Hereford Association, but were not identified as to their polled characteristic. Therefore, Gammon formed the American Polled Hereford Cattle Club to maintain a separate record of purebred Polled Hereford registrations.
Thus, in 1901, the Polled Hereford breed came into being with 11 registrations on record. In 1907, the pioneer breeders of Polled Herefords incorporated their organization, with headquarters in the Gammon home in Des Moines. Gammon served as executive secretary until 1921."
Yes that is the generally accepted history of the origins of polled Herefords. Among circles of breeders though that history though is called into question. I have heard the arguments that there were no mutations and that it had to come from outside and influence such as red poll. Have also heard speculation that there would not have been enough individuals with the polled mutation to have been found to feasibly work with. As far s I am concerned at this point it doesn’t really matter to me as I see it other breeds have likely been introduced at more points along the way as well. If I were a registered breeder marketing to others I would personally maintain the integrity of a breed as it were.
 

Jeanne - Simme Valley

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Wow - gone 1 day and missed a lot.
I have a hard time accepting the origin of the Polled Hfd - maybe I'm missing something, but why hasn't anyone developed a polled Holstein - or maybe they have and I don't know of it. You would think if it is a mutation, "someone" would have jumped on it. There are enough Holsteins around for a mutation to develop.
Black Simmental didn't always come from a Registered Black Angus bull. I bred my first Simmental semen back in 1970. I had a crayon commercial herd. Got 1/2 blood black Simmentals the first year - out of BWF cows from a commercial herd that never used a PB bull.
By the 90's, I had several cow families that were black or black factored - never using an Angus bull or a black Simmental bull. I raised an ET Homo black, Homo polled PB Simmental bull that I started using in my herd (my avatar).
Talking about the milk in Simmental - if you had Simmentals back in the 70's, 80's 90's - you had TOO MUCH milk. I am glad we reduced the milk production. Calves would get on 1 teat for a couple weeks, then find a 2nd, then finally get going on all 4. Nightmare. The "American" Simmental is a blend of what works best for your area. I am glad breeders/feedlots quit discriminating against "extra" white. I love chromed cattle. But, like I have said for many, many years - I don't care if they are Red, Black, or Purple Polka Dotted - just so they are good!

Angus have always been my 2nd favorite breed. I am ashamed at some of the Angus cattle I am seeing today. Too many breeders are looking at their papers and not AT THEIR animals. Hate to admit it, but since the Polled Hfd & Horned Hfd combined, the Hereford breed has excelled a lot of the Angus around. I am extremely impressed with what I am seeing in the Hfd breed - all having Horned genes in them.
 

Warren Allison

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That’s true, you can breed around and avoid heterozygous black, but they are a reality within several breeds including Black Herefords. That is the same point that I and others have been making in regards to the topic of red Angus.
From what I hear there is some interest in black Herefords locally. I would be interested in knowing how the black Hereford sired calves from those Brangus calves perform and sell, would also like to see a side by side comparison of some sired but traditional Hereford bulls as well.
I went down there this past week, while they were working those cows, and the 40 or so they bred to Chi-Angus bulls. I went there to help them learn how to use their horses to work their cattle better, and carried two that I am training down there to get them some experience. Helped them sort the cows with heifer calves into the corral at the working shed,. to be worked that next day, then turned out. And the ones with bull calves went to another corral to be worked today, I think. Out of the 86 Brangus x Black Herefords dropped, there were 45 heifers and 41 bull calves. Same with the 40 or so bred to the Chi-Angus bulls.. just about half and half heifers and bulls. I can tell you now how they will sell, because while I was there, a client of theirs from Alabama., that buys cattle about every year, paid them $30k, $1200 each, right then, for the pick of 25 of the 45 heifers at weaning. He also paid another $12.5k, for the pick of 10 of the Chi-Angus x Brangus heifers. They have bred red Hereford and Brangus in the past, both ways..hereford bulls on Brangus cows,. and Brangus bulls on Hereford cows. Their last calf crop like this were born this spring, Feb and March, and are about to be sold, or have sold recently. I dunno..these cattle are on a different farm. I am sure they recorded or will record the info on them, though at weaning. They intend to sell the red hereford cows ( bred back to their Hereford bulls) , and already have sold their red Hereford bulls. The info on this Black Hereford x Brangus crop, wont be available til this coming late summer or fall. I don't think there will be much difference in the steers, and since their Brangus are all heterozygous black, all of their red-Hereford x Brangus calves were black baldies. The main reason for this whole experiment, was to get a black baldie replacement heifer, that would birth a black calve every time. So, yes, how these heifers perform as brood cows, vs the red Hereford x Brangus heifers, will be interesting.
 
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cbcr

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Wow - gone 1 day and missed a lot.
I have a hard time accepting the origin of the Polled Hfd - maybe I'm missing something, but why hasn't anyone developed a polled Holstein - or maybe they have and I don't know of it. You would think if it is a mutation, "someone" would have jumped on it. There are enough Holsteins around for a mutation to develop.
Black Simmental didn't always come from a Registered Black Angus bull. I bred my first Simmental semen back in 1970. I had a crayon commercial herd. Got 1/2 blood black Simmentals the first year - out of BWF cows from a commercial herd that never used a PB bull.
By the 90's, I had several cow families that were black or black factored - never using an Angus bull or a black Simmental bull. I raised an ET Homo black, Homo polled PB Simmental bull that I started using in my herd (my avatar).
Talking about the milk in Simmental - if you had Simmentals back in the 70's, 80's 90's - you had TOO MUCH milk. I am glad we reduced the milk production. Calves would get on 1 teat for a couple weeks, then find a 2nd, then finally get going on all 4. Nightmare. The "American" Simmental is a blend of what works best for your area. I am glad breeders/feedlots quit discriminating against "extra" white. I love chromed cattle. But, like I have said for many, many years - I don't care if they are Red, Black, or Purple Polka Dotted - just so they are good!

Angus have always been my 2nd favorite breed. I am ashamed at some of the Angus cattle I am seeing today. Too many breeders are looking at their papers and not AT THEIR animals. Hate to admit it, but since the Polled Hfd & Horned Hfd combined, the Hereford breed has excelled a lot of the Angus around. I am extremely impressed with what I am seeing in the Hfd breed - all having Horned genes in them.
Jeanne, There are Polled Hosteins! Burket Farms in PA have had them for years. The polled Holsteins have and continue to improve but typically the proofs on the polled bulls in not as high as the horned.
 

FungusProudKY31

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"but why hasn't anyone developed a polled Holstein - or maybe they have and I don't know of it. You would think if it is a mutation, "someone" would have jumped on it. There are enough Holsteins around for a mutation to develop." They have them.
 

Ky hills

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Angus have always been my 2nd favorite breed. I am ashamed at some of the Angus cattle I am seeing today. Too many breeders are looking at their papers and not AT THEIR animals. Hate to admit it, but since the Polled Hfd & Horned Hfd combined, the Hereford breed has excelled a lot of the Angus around. I am extremely impressed with what I am seeing in the Hfd breed - all having Horned genes in them.
Angus have always been one of my favorite breeds, but I too believe that Herefords have picked up in some areas that Angus seem to be loosing ground in, especially as far as maternal traits and fertility. On average they definitely are better disposition wise. I also believe that Herefords are at a substantial crossroads as well as far as direction of the breed. If not careful they could loose some of the ground they have gained in similar fashion to Angus. We recently brought in a registered black Simmental bull for some of next springs breeding
 

Ky hills

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Jeanne, There are Polled Hosteins! Burket Farms in PA have had them for years. The polled Holsteins have and continue to improve but typically the proofs on the polled bulls in not as high as the horned.
Wonder what the origin of them is. Interesting that the proofs are not as high on the polled cattle if they are of the same genetic base as horned ones.
 

Warren Allison

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Thank you and likewise. I agree too that the ship has sailed as far as a merging of the AAA and the ARAA, The folks that made that decision long ago to exclude red angus had their reasoning and logic even though I think it’s plum stupid, that is what they did and no going back now.
As for DNA proof of Angus genetics for CAB, that is an issue that some want to pursue. I honestly don’t see it happening anytime soon if ever as it hasn’t gained a lot of traction. There are lots of registered Angus herds that sell their calves as commercial to be fed out. Not every purebred calf is or should be sold for breeding stock. There are too many, animals marketed for breeding purposes that should be sold as feeders.
I also agree that on the surface it does look like other breeds are taking advantage of CAB, and that is certainly debatable. The reality is most breeds except Angus and Herefords are relatively new to the US and breeding up programs were and are used within their registry’s where as Angus and Hereford have closed herdbooks. The breeds like Simmentals, Limousins etc, have many black hided animals and so there is nothing that discredits them from the black hided part of CAB.
On the subject of breed purity that is a real hot button topic in regards to both Angus and Herefords as many including myself tend to think outside breeds have been incorporated into both breeds at multiple points in time.
Well, there are other factors besides black hides, that are measured for a carcass to be scored CAB. Like marbling. Many purebred Holsteins may be more than 50% black, but their carcasses won't get the CAB label. On DNA testing for CAB, is there a DNA test that the results would be instantaneous? Or like a 48 hour turn around? There would have to be, in order for red Angus to get the CAB label, as awarded at processing. But even if there was what would it benefit the AAA to allow red angus carcasses to receive the CAB certification? I actually think, that the 2 registries are better than a co-mingled registry would be. There is no denying the awesome success of the AAA, and its focus on producing homozygous black Angus cattle. And I think their CAB is a plus for red angus as well. Red Angus definitely can possess the carcass qualities needed for CAB.. as much if not more than their black cousins. Red angus cows bred to homozygous black bulls. of any breed, can produce awesome CAB qualified steers. Red Angus x Red Hereford red baldies, make awesome momma cows, and again, bred with homozygous black bulls, will produce CAB qualified calves possessing ultimate hybrid vigor. Yeah, you might take a little ass-whooping on the red baldy steers, but the red baldy heifers should make as good a brood cow as a black baldy, when bred with homozygous black bulls of any breed. This was the whole ideal behind the development of the Black Hereford breed.. to eliminate the ass-whooping on the red baldy steers, if your bull is heterozygous black. And, to give you a black baldy cow that you could be confident would throw a black calf. If I were going to start put again today raising commercial cattle, around here I could buy red baldy..red angus x red hereford....cows and heifers for less money than a black baldy. And, when bred to a homozygous black Angus, or Brangus or Black Hereford or black Simmental bull, the calves would be the same as calves from a black baldy cow...still CAB qualified, but with a lower input cost. Man, I have enjoyed this whole conversation with you, carried over in 3 or 4 different threads. I recognize the controversy and discourse between cattlemen over the AAA., the Red Angus association, and the Black Herefords. I acknowledge that there are negatives about all 3 programs...nothing will be 100% suitable to 100% of the people. And, the negatives about any of the 3, that breeders may bring up, are not without merit. All things considered ( and I do consider and think about,. and try to understand views different from mine) I do think the red angus having a registry is a good thing. And, that the development of the Black Hereford as a separate breed is a good thing...especially with the enormous success of the AAA's CAB program. And, I personally think that closing the AAA books to red Angus, has proven to be a good move.
 

Warren Allison

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Angus have always been one of my favorite breeds, but I too believe that Herefords have picked up in some areas that Angus seem to be loosing ground in, especially as far as maternal traits and fertility. On average they definitely are better disposition wise. I also believe that Herefords are at a substantial crossroads as well as far as direction of the breed. If not careful they could loose some of the ground they have gained in similar fashion to Angus. We recently brought in a registered black Simmental bull for some of next springs breeding
Yep, and if you read the info on the Black Hereford web site, they say that " Herefords are probably the most docile docile cattle of all, and are very good mommas. Angus cows are also good mommas...sometimes TOO good.. when it comes to handling their new-born calves. Their goal was to develop a cow with the docility of the Hereford, only with a dominant black gene". I remember growing up, angus cows I had raised from birth, handled, showed, one or two bottle fed, that would get in your pocket in a split second once they dropped their calf. Same with the dog, or a horse or pony. .we were all monsters hell-bent on eating their new babies!! As the weeks went by, they'd gradually settle down and return to being docile. But the Herefords we had from time to time, were as gentle as the Holsteins in my neighbor's dairy. They'd let you handle the calves the day you found them. Hell,. my little brother had a Hereford show heifer, that went into our mostly angus herd after show season, that would. .I swear....bring her calf up to him to show him when she had one every year!! Now, his hand-feeding her a banana Moonpie every time he went to the pasture,. may have been a factor, as well. :cool:
 

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