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Raising your own bulls

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elkwc

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As is so often the case, it really depends what your goals are. By now, there are a ton of hoops that a typical registered bull has to jump through that a home raised bull won’t. That doesn’t mean the home raised bull is inferior or wouldn’t have been able to jump through those same hoops, just means that there’sa lot of information on the registered one. And of course some of that information is of dubious value, depending on your situation. But for one example, most of the genetic defects out there are monitored by the breed registries, and most of them require a test free to register.
I'm not sure what breeds you are referring too when you say that genetic defects are monitored. I know in the breeds I use that in some xases they aren't required to be tested for known defects and even if they do test and are positive they can be registered. I have a cow now that is a carrier. So evidently some associations gave different rules.
 

Jeanne - Simme Valley

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When I said I recommend buying the best bull you can - I was not saying buy the most expensive. I totally agree with @76 Bar . Know the breeder (commercial or PB) and buy what will compliment and BETTER your cows offspring.
Genetic defects are handled differently by different breeds. In the Simmental breed, if you cross with another known carrier breed (Angus, Chi, Maine, etc), the offspring has to be tested. If positive, it "can" be registered, but the registration clearly marks them as being a carrier.
 

Idaho

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I'm not sure what breeds you are referring too when you say that genetic defects are monitored. I know in the breeds I use that in some xases they aren't required to be tested for known defects and even if they do test and are positive they can be registered. I have a cow now that is a carrier. So evidently some associations gave different rules.
Well, I actually should’ve said that in the Angus breed MOST defects require a test free of the defect for at least bulls to be registered, even if the bull is just a potential carrier. Some of this has changed back and forth so I’m not sure without looking it up just exactly which defects are handled which way.
In some areas of the country it may be different, but out here nobody sells Angus bulls that are carriers or even potential carriers for known genetic defects.
 

Warren Allison

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AAA defects & policy.
https://www.angus.org/pub/GeneticConditionPolicy.aspx
Note that the association foolishly includes red gene carriers to be defective. Absurd to anyone who has a historical knowledge of the breed.
Not foolish at all. If you want to raise Black Angus cattle, or use a Reg Black Angus to cross with another breed to get black calves, then you want a homozygous black animal not heterozygous. So, carrying a red gene IS a defect.
 

Silver

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Not foolish at all. If you want to raise Black Angus cattle, or use a Reg Black Angus to cross with another breed to get black calves, then you want a homozygous black animal not heterozygous. So, carrying a red gene IS a defect.
I think if there is anything foolish about it it's the fact that in the US Red and Black Angus are two different breed associations, when in all fact it is one breed with two colour mutations. Every other country I'm aware of has one breed registry which encompasses both colours. But that's just my opinion.
 

Warren Allison

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I think if there is anything foolish about it it's the fact that in the US Red and Black Angus are two different breed associations, when in all fact it is one breed with two colour mutations. Every other country I'm aware of has one breed registry which encompasses both colours. But that's just my opinion.
To not keep the registries separate,. would eventually breed the reds out of existence. with black being dominate, and red being recessive. US leading the world, in all things, including cattle genetics, :cool:
 

Ky hills

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AAA defects & policy.
https://www.angus.org/pub/GeneticConditionPolicy.aspx
Note that the association foolishly includes red gene carriers to be defective. Absurd to anyone who has a historical knowledge of the breed.
I have always thought that it was so stupid that the red Angus cattle were not a part of the registry. They are a naturally occurring result unless there is an effort to breed away from the trait. It’s not like it’s a trait that comes from another breed that would/should be disqualified from a breed registry, as is the case for the cattle that are black hided are not permitted to be registered as Herefords.
 

Nick Wagner

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I have always thought that it was so stupid that the red Angus cattle were not a part of the registry. They are a naturally occurring result unless there is an effort to breed away from the trait. It’s not like it’s a trait that comes from another breed that would/should be disqualified from a breed registry, as is the case for the cattle that are black hided are not permitted to be registered as Herefords.
I saw my granddad knock a perfectly healthy calf in the head because it was red. Feelings ran deep back then I guess. But then I sold a bull once that threw some red calves. Got ribbed for years about it because he then sold the bull to his neighbor, who continued the ribbing. Good thing those red calves always grew like weeds so they could’t really complain.
 

Ky hills

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I saw my granddad knock a perfectly healthy calf in the head because it was red. Feelings ran deep back then I guess. But then I sold a bull once that threw some red calves. Got ribbed for years about it because he then sold the bull to his neighbor, who continued the ribbing. Good thing those red calves always grew like weeds so they could’t really complain.
I’ve heard those stories as well. As I understand it the American Angus Association is the only Angus registry in the world that differentiates and excludes red ones. That in itself should be very telling of how trivial that concept is. Until the black hided idiocy started it shouldn’t have had any bearing other than for preference of uniformity. The CAB black hided stuff is nothing but a marketing ploy that has destroyed a lot of good cattle. From what I have read the red Angus cattle actually marble a slight bit better than the black angus counterparts.
 

Nick Wagner

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I’ve heard those stories as well. As I understand it the American Angus Association is the only Angus registry in the world that differentiates and excludes red ones. That in itself should be very telling of how trivial that concept is. Until the black hided idiocy started it shouldn’t have had any bearing other than for preference of uniformity. The CAB black hided stuff is nothing but a marketing ploy that has destroyed a lot of good cattle. From what I have read the red Angus cattle actually marble a slight bit better than the black angus counterparts.
I believe most angus breeders prefer to call it a very successful marketing program.
 

Warren Allison

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I have always thought that it was so stupid that the red Angus cattle were not a part of the registry. They are a naturally occurring result unless there is an effort to breed away from the trait. It’s not like it’s a trait that comes from another breed that would/should be disqualified from a breed registry, as is the case for the cattle that are black hided are not permitted to be registered as Herefords.
I can totally understand why those who are breeding Red Angus, and are dedicated to preserving them, would not want to breed to a black Angus, knowing it would produce a black calf. And I totally understand why black Angus breeders, do not want red genes in the gene pool. If the only reason people raised Black Angus, was to produce black Angus, then yeah, they could breed a heterozygous black to a homozygous black, and get a black calf. But, people also produce black Angus to be used as an outcross to produce black calves out of commercial cross breeds. And to produce the black Simmentals, and black Limousines, and black most every other breed of cattle. It makes perfect sense to have the 2 registries. To register both animals in the same registry, would necessitate devising alpha-numeric codes in the registration numbers, to differentiate the red from the black. Having the Red Angus Association seems to be what the members want. Having the American Angus Association seems to be what their members want,. as well.
 

Ky hills

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I believe most angus breeders prefer to call it a very successful marketing program.
I guess they do, but it seems to me the “marketing program” caused a lot of long running good quality herds of other breeds to be sold out or bred out. Because of the nonsense, an inferior black hided calf will out sell a good quality calf simply because of hide color. Angus have historically been a reliable breed, again to me it seems like they are becoming victims of their own success. Other breeds that incorporated black hides into their standards can capitalize on the CAB marketing too. The Angus breed has also enjoyed the success of the marketing to the point that they have the lions share of it, and are trying to be all things as opposed to sticking with the traits that made them desirable in the first place. In saying all of this I’m not anti Angus. I used Angus bulls almost exclusively for 20 years, and even tried to put together a small herd of registered females as well. I gave up on that as the one I found were disappointing and not what I expected.
 

cbcr

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One thing that you can do to aid in your bull selection is to use the Ingenity Beef Profile that Neogen offers. I gives results on 16 traits and the results on three different indexes: Production, Maternal and Terminal. The test also includes Seek Sire.

This is a good option and we have associations that are using it for their animals because their is not enough data avaiable to be used to submit for EPD's.
 

Ky hills

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I can totally understand why those who are breeding Red Angus, and are dedicated to preserving them, would not want to breed to a black Angus, knowing it would produce a black calf. And I totally understand why black Angus breeders, do not want red genes in the gene pool. If the only reason people raised Black Angus, was to produce black Angus, then yeah, they could breed a heterozygous black to a homozygous black, and get a black calf. But, people also produce black Angus to be used as an outcross to produce black calves out of commercial cross breeds. And to produce the black Simmentals, and black Limousines, and black most every other breed of cattle. It makes perfect sense to have the 2 registries. To register both animals in the same registry, would necessitate devising alpha-numeric codes in the registration numbers, to differentiate the red from the black. Having the Red Angus Association seems to be what the members want. Having the American Angus Association seems to be what their members want,. as well.
I can understand wanting to breed one color of cattle as well for uniformity. The registry could have been very easily set up to accommodate both. Take for instance the Hereford breed after the Horned and Polled Associations merged. The registration numbers begin with the horn code distinguishing them. The Simmental breed is another example, if one wants to insure black calves, using homozygous black cattle it can be accomplished.
 

Warren Allison

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I guess they do, but it seems to me the “marketing program” caused a lot of long running good quality herds of other breeds to be sold out or bred out. Because of the nonsense, an inferior black hided calf will out sell a good quality calf simply because of hide color. Angus have historically been a reliable breed, again to me it seems like they are becoming victims of their own success. Other breeds that incorporated black hides into their standards can capitalize on the CAB marketing too. The Angus breed has also enjoyed the success of the marketing to the point that they have the lions share of it, and are trying to be all things as opposed to sticking with the traits that made them desirable in the first place. In saying all of this I’m not anti Angus. I used Angus bulls almost exclusively for 20 years, and even tried to put together a small herd of registered females as well. I gave up on that as the one I found were disappointing and not what I expected.
I agree with you, in that incorporating Black Angus into other breeds, to make them eligible for the CAB designation, has hurt other breeds. The fact that other breeds did, and are doing this, just reinforces the ideal of keeping red angus out of the Angus registry, and having a separate registry for the Red Angus. But,. how do you think this turning-other-breeds-black, has made Black Angus not a reliable breed? In what way are Angus " victims of their success"?
 

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