Questions about selling seed stock.

[dun]

I don;t know how the other associations work, but with Red Angus the actual percentage of the animal is what determines the classification. 100% angus is 1A, 87% angus but less than 100% is 1B, anything less is category III. Category II is 87% or greater but with disqualifying characteristics. A 1A bred to a !B will still only produce a 1B.
All of our 1Bs go back to Signal(SM) and Abricot (SM). A strange quirk is Abricot goes back to a Red Angus.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Don't forget the septic tank of Angus genetics to make all those fake black breeds. If they would call them a composite is one thing it's another to look you in the eye and tell you it is xyz breed.

What difference does it make? Rhetorical question.

Purebreds, also called purebreeds, are cultivated varieties or cultivars of an animal species, achieved through the process of selective breeding. When the lineage of a purebred animal is recorded, that animal is said to be pedigreed.

Doesn't come with a divine affidavit guaranteeing that somewhere back in that pedigree there is not a mongrel in the woodpile.

I guess none if your too ignorant to know the difference of someone peeing on your leg and telling you it it's raining.
There are no black Limm, SIMM , Beefmaster etc it is a con job.
If I want Angus genetics I will buy Angus or Brangus

 

[darkhorse]

I'm a common man ,I drive a common van ,my cows ain't got no pedigree. If I have my way I'm going to stay that way, cause highbrow people have lost their sanity.......

 

[WalnutCrest]

To Darkhorse (immediately above) ... cows with no pedigrees can be some awesome (!!) critters. Pedigrees do not determine the quality of the stock.

Thanks for the time involved in that WC.

What would you suggest the assoc's do from here, moving forward?

I think some of the smaller outfits are trying to big dog. They have a few nice calves and get to thinking money for a bull sounds a lot better than selling a good steer off the farm. I wonder what the actual keeper/cull percentage is of the big outfits are for bull calves? Heifer calves sold as replacements or kept, vs sold as feeders?

This is why right here. The older larger pure bred breeders were more honest and knew how to use a knife. IMO
Most of the bigger outfits I've talked to claim to cull 50%+ of the animals. I was surprised how many of the big breeders use timed AI first and then turn the same bull in with the cows after one AI service.

I would like to see the breed associations do what Dun mentions the Red Angus folks do, or what the Aubrac association does ... or something similar to either one ... where the % blood is what is required, and where a 7/8ths animal only counts as a 7/8ths animal in an up-grading program.

I have zero problem with any breed that wants to allow an up-grading program, but way (!!) too many do something like what I laid out above ... and too many producers haven't really thought it all the way through as to how much heterosis they're actually selling to the commercial cattle operator.

...which get's to Blind Raven's comments...

Yes, the barn door is open and (to some extent) the horses are already out.

But, it's not too late.

So, as to my recommendation to try to corral the horses that are out and re-establish some sort of quality pen for the horses to stay in, I would suggest a planned migration away from what the breeds currently do (allow a 7/8ths animal to qualify as a 100%'er for up-grading) to one that only allows animals above ____% of actual pedigree blood to be considered a purebred ... and ... for each animal to only be used at their actual % blood (per the paper).

I'm fine if Breed 1 wants to set that level at 75% and another at 80% and another at 95% ... doesn't matter to me where any breed draws their line (RA is, apparently, 87% ... and Aubracs are at 90%, also with disqualifying characteristics) ... just that the line is drawn and it is clear. The marketplace likes clarity and certainty. Easy to understand ideas are paramount to good marketing.

So, if 'ripping the band aid off' is too harsh for some breed associations, maybe a decade long migration back to purity that would look something like this ...

2018 calves with a true breed purity of 80% or higher are registered as purebred and 100% animals are fullblood
2019 calves with a true breed purity of 81% or higher are registered as purebred and 100% animals are fullblood
2020 calves with a true breed purity of 82% or higher are registered as purebred and 100% animals are fullblood
2021 calves with a true breed purity of 83% or higher are registered as purebred and 100% animals are fullblood
2022 calves with a true breed purity of 84% or higher are registered as purebred and 100% animals are fullblood
2023 calves with a true breed purity of 85% or higher are registered as purebred and 100% animals are fullblood
2024 calves with a true breed purity of 86% or higher are registered as purebred and 100% animals are fullblood
2025 calves with a true breed purity of 87% or higher are registered as purebred and 100% animals are fullblood
2026 calves with a true breed purity of 88% or higher are registered as purebred and 100% animals are fullblood
2027 calves with a true breed purity of 89% or higher are registered as purebred and 100% animals are fullblood
2028 calves with a true breed purity of 90% or higher are registered as purebred and 100% animals are fullblood

... something like this would allow current breeders to not be left too far in a lurch (i.e., with too many head they thought were 'purebred' but were, in actuality, really low percentage of their breed of choice), and it would allow all breeders time to migrate their herd back into pursing the things that make their breed the awesome thing they think it is (whatever that might be, as it varies from breed to breed).

If an association wants to do this transition faster or in a different way, sweet. Draw a line, figure out a way to get everyone who wants to be on one side of the line a reasonable way to get there without it ruining anyone's business, and then tell the world about it so all of the bull / cow / heifer buyers can make plans.

Oh, and yes Bright Raven, all breeds have something else in the woodpile. This is nature, after all. However, anyone representing themselves as a purebred (or fullblood) breeder of any breed of any type of animal (or plant) owes it to the others who are trying to do the same sort of thing, to tell the truth to the best of their ability.

So, if Bull A bred Cow Z to make Calf 123, I shouldn't lie (even if it's to my short-term advantage to do so) to tell the world that Bull B actually bred Cow Z to make Calf 123. While that may have happened in the past (and fouled up the integrity of the old pedigrees), there is no reason to allow past failings to contaminate what is being attempted in the here and now. IMO.

 

[Bright Raven]

WalnutCrest:

Thank you. You put an effort into your response and that was appreciated.

You satisfied my curiosity. In the interest of full disclosure ( ). Personally, I would require that every registered animal be DNA tested to Dam and Sire. The problem is that the members of the breed associations already whine and bellyache, can you imagine the uproar if they had more red tape?

Let's identify where the problem is. It is not the associations, its the membership.

 

[WalnutCrest]

WalnutCrest:

Thank you. You put an effort into your response and that was appreciated.

You satisfied my curiosity. In the interest of full disclosure ( ). Personally, I would require that every registered animal be DNA tested to Dam and Sire. The problem is that the members of the breed associations already whine and bellyache, can you imagine the uproar if they had more red tape?

Let's identify where the problem is. It is not the associations, its the membership.

...and (if that's the angle you want to take) therefore, the problem is sin. Greed. Arrogance. Pride. Etc.

The parentage testing is a good idea. Pricey. It probably would lead to more cull decisions (rather than registering a marginal animal).

Another idea is to make it more expensive to register bull calves than to register heifer calves...

 

[Supa Dexta]

Have to DNA (sim) bulls up here.

 

[Boot Jack Bulls]

DNA testing all animals to be registered would be pricey. I'm sure some would just cull harder, but a ton would just stop registering. That may not sound like a big deal, but it is. There are a whole mess of Shorthorn breeders in this country who produce great, commercially acceptable seed stock, who have quit the association altogether. This really ends up hurting the breed as a whole, because it starts to limit the usefulness of registered stock beyond the show ring.

 

[WalnutCrest]

DNA testing all animals to be registered would be pricey. I'm sure some would just cull harder, but a ton would just stop registering. That may not sound like a big deal, but it is. There are a whole mess of Shorthorn breeders in this country who produce great, commercially acceptable seed stock, who have quit the association altogether. This really ends up hurting the breed as a whole, because it starts to limit the usefulness of registered stock beyond the show ring.

Agreed.

There has to be a balance between stewarding the breed identity (including herdbook) and making the process so onerous that nobody (other than the richest, most anally retentive breeders) wants to actually do it.

 

[dun]

WalnutCrest:

Thank you. You put an effort into your response and that was appreciated.

You satisfied my curiosity. In the interest of full disclosure ( ). Personally, I would require that every registered animal be DNA tested to Dam and Sire. The problem is that the members of the breed associations already whine and bellyache, can you imagine the uproar if they had more red tape?

Let's identify where the problem is. It is not the associations, its the membership.

With Red Angus, starting for 2017 calves all bulls that sire calves have to have DNA on file with the association

 

[Bright Raven]

WalnutCrest:

Thank you. You put an effort into your response and that was appreciated.

You satisfied my curiosity. In the interest of full disclosure ( ). Personally, I would require that every registered animal be DNA tested to Dam and Sire. The problem is that the members of the breed associations already whine and bellyache, can you imagine the uproar if they had more red tape?

Let's identify where the problem is. It is not the associations, its the membership.

...and (if that's the angle you want to take) therefore, the problem is sin. Greed. Arrogance. Pride. Etc.

The parentage testing is a good idea. Pricey. It probably would lead to more cull decisions (rather than registering a marginal animal).

Another idea is to make it more expensive to register bull calves than to register heifer calves...

THE PROBLEM IS SIN? WHOA!

IMO, it probably has more to do with inconvenience. The inconvenience of more cost and labor. The average producer is aging. I am guessing you are younger than 50. When you get past 65, you begin to rebell against any additional workload. The other factor is time and money. None of those reasons are sinful.

 

[Chocolate Cow]

You can talk pedigrees, Associations, people, EPD's, color, percentages, structure and anything else BUT if your herd health isn't 110% and you sell an animal that carries a disease-say Johne's for example-and you infect your customers herd-

 

[Bright Raven]

You can talk ,pedigrees, Associations, people, EPD's, color, percentages, structure and anything else BUT if your herd health isn't 110% and you sell an animal that carries a disease-say Johne's for example-and you infect your customers herd-

I am 100 % in your camp. IMO, herd health is a priority over herd genetics. You can have the best genetics in the breed and they will under perform if the herd health and nutrition practices are poor.

 

[dun]

Red Angus Associaiton sale terms and conditions
http://assets.redangus.org/media/Docume ... 6_2012.pdf

 

[True Grit Farms]

You can talk ,pedigrees, Associations, people, EPD's, color, percentages, structure and anything else BUT if your herd health isn't 110% and you sell an animal that carries a disease-say Johne's for example-and you infect your customers herd-

I am 100 % in your camp. IMO, herd health is a priority over herd genetics. You can have the best genetics in the breed and they will under perform if the herd health and nutrition practices are poor.

Anyone can pour the feed to a cow and make it look decent. But confirmation and structure of an animal is something you can't get from a bucket. And that's where the breeding and culling practices make a difference when selecting or selling seed stock. A well conditioned halter broke animal with a bad udder isn't a good animal to produce seed stock from.

 

[Bright Raven]

You can talk ,pedigrees, Associations, people, EPD's, color, percentages, structure and anything else BUT if your herd health isn't 110% and you sell an animal that carries a disease-say Johne's for example-and you infect your customers herd-

I am 100 % in your camp. IMO, herd health is a priority over herd genetics. You can have the best genetics in the breed and they will under perform if the herd health and nutrition practices are poor.

Anyone can pour the feed to a cow and make it look decent. But confirmation and structure of an animal is something you can't get from a bucket. And that's where the breeding and culling practices make a difference when selecting or selling seed stock. A well conditioned halter broke animal with a bad udder isn't a good animal to produce seed stock from.

Yeah.

 

[dun]

Since you mentioned halter broke, we have only had 2 of our bulls halter broke as weanlings. One thing I noticed about those 2 is you can't hardly get behind them and it's almost impossible to drive them away from you. They always want to face you, I think to see what you are doing. Other bulls we had have nover done that. I wonder if that is a ramification of them being halter broke. Opinions?

 

[Bright Raven]

Since you mentioned halter broke, we have only had 2 of our bulls halter broke as weanlings. One thing I noticed about those 2 is you can't hardly get behind them and it's almost impossible to drive them away from you. They always want to face you, I think to see what you are doing. Other bulls we had have nover done that. I wonder if that is a ramification of them being halter broke. Opinions?

dun. I broke my bulls to halter last year. Got 3 broke this year. Absolutely. Same exact experience. It can get annoying.

 

[True Grit Farms]

Red Angus Associaiton sale terms and conditions
http://assets.redangus.org/media/Docume ... 6_2012.pdf

Dun here's a guarantee that is hard to beat, Scott said it covered anything including being struck by lightning. The only thing that surprised me is, that they didn't offer free shipping throughout the US of A.

 

[Bright Raven]

Red Angus Associaiton sale terms and conditions
http://assets.redangus.org/media/Docume ... 6_2012.pdf

This is very similar to what you see at the public auctions for the Simmental breed. Some of the private auctions have lessor obligations placed on their sales.

The sales usually guarantee "safe in calf" and that cows and heifers are guaranteed as "breeders".

One of the stipulations I have seen at private auctions is regarding heifers maintained for showing. They often stipulate that due to holding the animal in such an extreme state of obesity for exhibition that the buyer is responsible getting the animal in condition for breeding.