Questions about selling seed stock.

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True Grit Farms

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What obligation does the seed stock producer have? I see some cattle with very poor udders being sold or used to produce seed stock. Myself, I'd never sell a animal that wasn't put together correctly.
 

Caustic Burno

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True Grit Farms":16klo84o said:
What obligation does the seed stock producer have? I see some cattle with very poor udders being sold or used to produce seed stock. Myself, I'd never sell a animal that wasn't put together correctly.

Lot of Yahoo!'s selling paper today not quality cattle.
 

Son of Butch

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What obligation? None... but maybe we could amend LBJ's Wholesome Meat Act of 1967 to include:

"All cattle used in the production of seed stock must be federally inspected by the usda to ensure soundness prior to
the sale of any offspring for replacements."

Problem solved? :roll:
:tiphat:
 

J&D Cattle

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Caustic Burno":cl5gjccy said:
True Grit Farms":cl5gjccy said:
What obligation does the seed stock producer have? I see some cattle with very poor udders being sold or used to produce seed stock. Myself, I'd never sell a animal that wasn't put together correctly.

Lot of Yahoo!'s selling paper today not quality cattle.

CB's dead on. The only obligation you have is to yourself and the reputation you want to make and or keep.
 

Bright Raven

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Butch hit the nail. Obligation??? What do you want Grit? Regulations and statutes. I thought you were the leader of the free world.

BTW: there is nothing sacred to seedstock that shouldn't exist in any business model:

1. Warranty: stand behind your product.
2. Honesty
3. Integrity
4. Ethical practices

In the end, the buyer has a responsibility.

Once upon a time, I went to a sale. Cattle were showcased as usual in pens before the sale. I saw a cow laying with a vaginal prolapse. She stood, it disappeared. Word must have gotten around. She was an outstanding cow and her price was reflective of an outstanding cow with a defect. Buyers are pretty smart.
 
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True Grit Farms

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So you don't owe the breed or breeds that your representing anything? I know at one time cattlemen took pride in the breed they raised. And at one time being a breeder ment something. But now it seems like every backyard cattle operation is a seed stock operation. IMO The small operation isn't willing to use the knife or cull for the benefit of the breed they represent. Greed maybe?
 
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True Grit Farms

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Bright Raven":3m7osje2 said:
Butch hit the nail. Obligation??? What do you want Grit? Regulations and statutes. I thought you were the leader of the free world.

BTW: there is nothing sacred to seedstock that shouldn't exist in any business model:

1. Warranty: stand behind your product.
2. Honesty
3. Integrity
4. Ethical practices

In the end, the buyer has a responsibility.

Once upon a time, I went to a sale. Cattle were showcased as usual in pens before the sale. I saw a cow laying with a vaginal prolapse. She stood, it disappeared. Word must have gotten around. She was an outstanding cow and her price was reflective of an outstanding cow with a defect. Buyers are pretty smart.

Cows with a bad udder need to be used as commercial stock, not sold as seed stock. That's something that a producer can see and you don't even need genomic testing to find a dirty animal.
I see where you left quality out, is there a reason?
 

M-5

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Bright Raven":fcwr3i1d said:
Butch hit the nail. Obligation??? What do you want Grit? Regulations and statutes. I thought you were the leader of the free world.

BTW: there is nothing sacred to seedstock that shouldn't exist in any business model:

1. Warranty: stand behind your product.
2. Honesty
3. Integrity
4. Ethical practices

In the end, the buyer has a responsibility.

Once upon a time, I went to a sale. Cattle were showcased as usual in pens before the sale. I saw a cow laying with a vaginal prolapse. She stood, it disappeared. Word must have gotten around. She was an outstanding cow and her price was reflective of an outstanding cow with a defect. Buyers are pretty smart.

I Don't think Grit is for more regulation other than SELF regulation. Caustic Drove the nail. A vast majority of seed stock producers rely what the papers say. The SELLERS Should Have a responsibility To themselves not to offer poor genetic characteristics for sale. and as In the business world people will soon quit doing business with the producers That do not cull or try to fix traits that only exacerbate the problems Like poor udders.
 

Son of Butch

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True Grit Farms":3cys24xt said:
So you don't owe the breed or breeds that you're representing anything?
Not really, other than an ethical representation of what you see is what you get.
The Free Market will sort it out by sifting the wheat from the chaff.


I know at one time cattlemen took pride in the breed they raised.
Pride goeth before the fall and probably why the "humble" Black Angus is still number 1. ;-)

Greed maybe?
Hmmm... could be, as I hear that condition does afflict some "other" members of the human race. :)
I know True Grit isn't for more regulation... I was just being a smart Alec in making my point.
Buyer has the obligation to himself when exercising his free will in purchases in his own best interest.
Seller's obligation is to his own best interests and in time between two, both with free will it sorts itself out.
 

Bright Raven

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Son of Butch":1bljadti said:
True Grit Farms":1bljadti said:
So you don't owe the breed or breeds that you're representing anything?
Not really, other than an ethical representation of what you see is what you get.
The Free Market will sort it out by sifting the wheat from the chaff.


I know at one time cattlemen took pride in the breed they raised.
Pride goeth before the fall and probably why the "humble" Black Angus is still number 1. ;-)

Greed maybe?
Hmmm... could be, as I hear that condition does afflict some "other" members of the human race. :)

You nailed it again, Butch.

Grit: Quality is to a large extent in the eye of the beholder.

Who produces the best 1/2 ton pickup?
Ford
Chevy
Dodge
Toyota

But yes, there are qualities that are obvious to see but some people tolerate more range in say teat length than the next guy.
 
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True Grit Farms

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I wouldn't buy any truck with a flat tire Raven.
Seems to me as tolerance is being taught we're losing quality. I remember when dogs were being culled because their color wasn't appropriate for the breed. And it was with a club not a knife.
 

Bright Raven

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True Grit Farms":1v97wbmg said:
I wouldn't buy any truck with a flat tire Raven.
Seems to me as tolerance is being taught we're losing quality. I remember when dogs were being culled because their color wasn't appropriate for the breed. And it was with a club not a knife.

Keep it simply. Do what your conscience tells you is right. I have not met anyone yet who is trying to produce low quality cattle.
 

SPH

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I think the "blanket" answer is be upfront, ethical, and honest in anything you sell. Don't misrepresent what you are selling by knowingly hiding something or marketing it as something that it is not. And with virgin heifers and bulls, a good seedstock producer should guarantee 1st year of breeding, if a heifer won't breed in normal conditions or a bull is firing blanks and can't settle cows then they should refund or provide a comparable replacement. That's just my feeling at least, when you are in the seedstock business your reputation is everything and not making good on a deal that went south for 1 reason or another could hurt your reputation more than what the animal is worth.

I think Butch and Raven are dead on with what they said above, buyer needs to at least have some obligation of his own to do the homework on what he potentially is buying and as Raven said quality is in the eye of the beholder. For instance when it comes to udders, what 1 guy may find functional another may not. Obviously when it comes to heifers or dry cows it's harder to judge udders without knowing a little about the breeding behind them. As for feet and structure, well what you see is what you get - it's hard to hide what is staring you right in the face if you know what to look for. When it comes to a seller you'd hope most would be ethical and know what is worth offering up and what should be culled and sent to the sale barn but that's 1 thing that unfortunately is mostly something that falls on the shoulders of the seller to do the right thing and can't really be "regulated." If you have questions a seller won't or can't answer like weights or any data they may have collected, general questions about how they raise their animals, etc. that should be a red flag.

Like callmefence said about 700lb weanlings, I'd want to know was that obtained by using creep or not and how long were they on creep before weaning. How about their mommas, what kind of management system are they raising their calves - what kind of body condition score and how much added nutrition are the cows getting and what kind of environment are they raising their calves in? So many variables can potentially "prop up" weaning weights that these are questions any knowledgeable buyer should be asking and taking a visit of the operation to see for themselves so they have a good understanding of how what you may buy was raised. Any reputable and honest seedstock seller shouldn't have an issue with showing you their program and answering any questions you have.
 

WalnutCrest

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Disclosure is not a dirty word.

A client is coming a week from Sunday ... driving over 20hrs ... to get two heifers, one of whom needs some TLC and has been priced accordingly. The other one is a better critter and has been priced accordingly. I believe I've been about as clear as I know how to be with this repeat client (they've purchased numerous embryos and semen before, this is their first live animal purchase).

I have no qualms about putting a big number on a really nice animal nor about putting a small number on an animal that may really be more of a hit-or-miss project.

*************

As a bit of an aside, I believe that the producer that is MORE transparent should be able to charge a higher price for what they produce ... not less.

If a seedstock producer is telling you the good and bad about their stock, and based on the details they're giving you on the bad you suspect they're really telling you everything, you should be a MORE confident buyer and therefore willing to pay more for the animal / semen / embryo you're buying.

The ones that are "caveat emptor" out of the gate are the ones you should negotiate hard on price ... or be quick to walk away from ...

There are no perfect bulls. There are no perfect cows. There are no perfect heifers. Buyer's shouldn't expect perfection ... these are live animals, and live animals can find all sorts of ways to not live up to expectations (including to die)!
 

Fire Sweep Ranch

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Every cow and every bull on our place that is sold, I encourage the buyer to look at the dam and grandam and so forth of that animal. The only time that does not happen is if it is an embryo, but I make sure I provide a picture of the dam in those cases. Most buyers walk through our herd, and can see not only the dam, but the full sibs and half sibs of the genetics they are purchasing. They have the choice to NOT buy if they do not like what they see. Full disclosure.
 

SPH

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Fire Sweep Ranch":3fuzwetv said:
Every cow and every bull on our place that is sold, I encourage the buyer to look at the dam and grandam and so forth of that animal. The only time that does not happen is if it is an embryo, but I make sure I provide a picture of the dam in those cases. Most buyers walk through our herd, and can see not only the dam, but the full sibs and half sibs of the genetics they are purchasing. They have the choice to NOT buy if they do not like what they see. Full disclosure.

That's the 1 thing about selling seed stock is not taking it personal when someone leaves without making a purchase. We've told guys if what we have for sale doesn't fit what they are looking for we aren't the only breeders in the state and we have no issue referring them to breeders we think may have what they are looking for as we've had people referred to us too that resulted in a sale. People respect honesty and full disclosure, even when you don't make a sale you still are marketing your program and people keep that in mind. We've heard a fair share of stories from guys that were rubbed the wrong way or were taken by someone that were not upfront with them. Those kind of guys make it harder for those who are upfront and honest because you have to establish trust with them that they aren't going down the same path that already burned them.

The number 1 thing when it comes to selling seed stock is being in tune with what buyers in your market value. The saying "the customer is always right" should mean something to you because no one wants to hear you tell them that they are wrong and you are right.
 

Caustic Burno

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I sold seedstock for years until the drought made it no longer feasible.
Your selling two things the breed and your name. Seventy percent of the calf crop is sale barn or commercial material and should never be papered.
Biggest problem today is the breed associations don't police themselves and are just as AFU over paper and hide color. The associations have become the enemy of the breed in many cases. There are several if you just saw the breed drive down the road
you can register yours in the pasture.
The AHA and Angus have supposedly stayed true. They are just peeing on your leg and telling you it's raining as well.
 

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