Questions about frame, etc.

[BARNSCOOP]

I have to ask these questions because they are some of my strongest weakness in regards to the phenotypes of cattle. 1. Frame: Please diffine this term. 2. Describe to me how you can "see" with your eyes early or late maturing cattle if you know there ages or not. 3. At what age can you see how early they will mature?

 

[KNERSIE]

Firstly the maturity refers to carcass maturity (the fat finish of the carcass) and not neccesarily sexual maturity although there is a strong correlation.

1. frame score is a numeric value given to the hip height measurement of animals. It is gender and age specific.

2. The relative length of the cannon bone as well as the overall length of the legs in relation to the body will give you a fair idea. As long as the long bones are still growing the animal won't start to lay on fat and the carcass won't mature. The growth plates of the long bones typically start closing at around 12 months of age. In well fed animals 85% of the longbone growth is completed by the time the animal turns 1 year old.

3. You can see from a very young age, but you need a bit of knowledge of the herd and a trained eye.

 

[cmf1]

I'm more than willing to be shot down or slapped around if there's good reason, but with what little knowledge I have, this is how I look at cattle.

First thing I look for is a really clean and straight topline that ties nicely to a well placed tailset to mass on the back end.
If those 3 things are not there I don't bother looking any further.

If they are...from the side view I want the rump to tie in to the back leg close to halfway down the length (starting at the hip) of the leg in a rounded line. To me the rounder the line the better, the straighter the less I like'em.
A little more length between front and back without having a "waist" is a good thing
From the rear I envision a 55 gallon drum with supports attached no lower than dead center of the circumference. Legs on the corners, not under.
On a female, gratuitous folds of skin from the crotch to the udder and a well defined genitalia.
On a male, little or no "butcrack", good scrotal development,clean tight sheath(considering breed traits).

If all that looks good I get more interested. I've seen a lot of'em with well defined front ends and no rear ends, but very few the other way around. Just me.
The front end I just want to see balance with the rear end. Legs on the corners, space between them, and lots of depth from the "withers" to the chest. I also like to see the chest pretty close to the ground because to me that means more efficient pasture mowing.
I want to look at the girls head and see girly features.
I want to look at the boys heads and see strength and masculinity without meanness.
My experience, I believe in whorl placement.
Dimensionally in my mind a refrigerator turned on it's side with legs tied in midway and then round off the corners forces me to then tear apart the finer points like feet, leg angles, neck, etc., taking in to consideration breed traits that I'm aware of.
For me knowing what I don't want is as important as knowing what I do want.
This is a continually evolving process for me as I know I can never know everything, nor as much as the next guy who can pick'em quicker and take the best and leave the rest.
Another 20 years of doing this and I hope to be better at it and have more information for you.
Any corrections or dunce caps issued will be accepted in stride.

 

[KNERSIE]

Didn't you just reply to the wrong thread?

BTW your understanding of rump isn't quite according to the definition. ;-)

 

[cmf1]

Knersie,
I think this is the only thread I replied to?
Tell me where you feel I am errant, please. This is what I look for now, but it's not what I looked for 2 years ago. It may not be my prime criteria a year from now.
The only way I can make adjustments is with critical input, and you can't imagine how open I am to it.
I'm a skull'o'mush lookin' for stiffener.

 

[KNERSIE]

Knersie,
I think this is the only thread I replied to?

There is a thread on the Breeding and Calving issues about what you select for in a bull, I thought you may have tried to reply to that question and not these of Barnscoop's about frame and early maturity?

Tell me where you feel I am errant, please. This is what I look for now, but it's not what I looked for 2 years ago. It may not be my prime criteria a year from now.
The only way I can make adjustments is with critical input, and you can't imagine how open I am to it.
I'm a skull'o'mush lookin' for stiffener.

I was referring to your use of the term rump.

I want the rump to tie in to the back leg close to halfway down the length (starting at the hip) of the leg in a rounded line

Unless I am reading this wrong you are using the term rump when you actually mean round. The rump is the area on the top of the hip between the hooks and pins.

 

[BARNSCOOP]

So, If I am looking at a year old calf be it bull, steer, or heifer. What will I see if it is an early (carcass) maturing beeve? You stated it is gender and age specific. What about breed specific? I am sure it is a trait bred for within a breeding program but are their certain breeds in general that are late or early carcass maturing?

 

[cmf1]

I stand corrected and further educated...

I want rump and round (on my cattle) :nod: :nod:

The confusion comes from me being an old white guy with neither, so I speak from having no first hand knowledge of such things. (on me)

 

[KNERSIE]

So, If I am looking at a year old calf be it bull, steer, or heifer. What will I see if it is an early (carcass) maturing beeve?

You'll see short cannon bones, typically a shorter wider head, lower flank with the top and bottom lines almost parallel.

You stated it is gender and age specific. What about breed specific?

The frame score chart is gender and age specific, its universal across all breeds though.

I am sure it is a trait bred for within a breeding program but are their certain breeds in general that are late or early carcass maturing?

It would have been a relatively simple answer 50 years ago, nowadays people have messed alot of the traditional good qualities in breeds up to the point where you can't even guess which breed it is, BUT generally speaking the British breeds are earlier maturing than the Continental breeds.