Question for writer

[VGrossack]

Dear Forum,

I was here once before to ask a question for research for my novel; now I have another.

How old do bulls have to be before they are considered dangerous? How old would a bull be when it is considered full-grown?

If you would like to know why I am asking, it is because in my novel there are a few scenes which focus on "bull-dancing", an ancient sport in which acrobatic dancers leapt on to the backs of bulls, often flipping themselves over the horns. The sport was popular in the Mediterranean, especially Crete, around 1500 BC amd later.

Thanks so much for your help!
Victoria Grossack
http://www.tapestryofbronze.com

 

[Brandonm2]

I don't know anything about "bull dancing"; but I suspect that breeders of aggressive cattle are just the opposite of breeders of docile cattle. With a small herd you can identify bull calves at ~120 days which are aggressive towards people or unusually flighty. They would (I assume) encourage that aggressiveness by identifying those bulls and keeping them intact for future use. Nobody wants to see a 4-6 month old 300 pound calf get after somebody; but if he is aggressive you will know it by then. Certainly by one year, if a bull is really homicidal his owner knows who he is. In 1500 I assume they grass fattened so those bulls would be a little slower growing so I would think you would prefer a two year old for his debut in the ring. Turning a mad two year old bull into a crowd of dancers would certainly be an interesting show. It is true that bulls grow meaner as they age; but they also get lazier. I think the BEST bulls at this probably had long distinguished careers at this for 7,8,9 years; but I suspect that most bulls reached their prime at age 3. (he is fully mature but still young enough to have the energy to act stupid). I think older bulls are more likely to charge the first few people and get tired on you. Younger (2-4) year olds are more likely to put on a good show by chasing dancers all over a ring for 5 or 10 minutes. You probably should go talk to some rodeo clowns. They know more about this than any of us. A lot of their routines (when it is just them and the bull) is probably close to the sport you are writing about.

 

[Medic24]

Hummmmm..well written Brandon.......


I never have kept mean bulls, until recently , I now keep them intentionally in our upper pastures, where all the new home owners behind our fences like to climb over to peer at our cattle, Llamas etc....drives me nuts. Duh? never seen a cow before from the big cities I guess. I got signs etc..... never helped, but a BIG curious bull keeps them out.


Used to be ..I had a great bull that loved to play... and he would hurt just as bad as one bent on destruction... With sorrow I had to sell him.

 

[Susie David]

Brandonm2 put it like it is....different breds have reps for being mean or flighty and some are gentle on through old age. You know early on which bull has a temperment issue and make a decision whether to sell him or steer him. Gentle bulls are easy sales, mean bulls are ground beef.
As for bull dancing...same sport as bull riding today...young men with a large dose of testosterone and alot of time on their hands. Man against the mighty animal.
Any bull is dangerous or can be, intentionally or not and some like to play( push and throw things around) a year old bull can easily weigh 1,000lbs a three year old can double that...not good play mates for people.
Good luck on your book, share the title when finished...Susie

 

[rwtherefords]

How old do bulls have to be before they are considered dangerous? How old would a bull be when it is considered full-grown?

Your dangerous question is a little tough to answer. I've seen 500 lb. bulls that want to drive you through a fence whenever you're in with them. Is that dangerous? I think danger is determined by the attitude of the animal, the mass he carries relative to yours, and the experience (or lack thereof) you have to deal with him.

Most people in my area don't consider a bull full-grown until they reach about 4 years old. They get their frame size much earlier, but the ones I've seen add considerable mass each year until they're about 4.

 

[bigbull338]

age really has nothing todo with a mean bull.its more the temperment.temerment can make a bull mean at any age.the last time we loaded somws calves 700lbs.a rank bull pt my brother and hauler both on top of a 6ft tall pipe fence.he was going after them so i kept drawing him off to where i was.the older they get the meaner they get.scott

 

[VGrossack]

Thanks for all the information! It is extremely helpful, and I will look for information on rodeo clowns.

As to when the book(s) with the bulls in them will be published, I will let you know when I know myself. They are part of a series set in Bronze Age Greece, what is known as the golden age of heroes, a couple of hundred years before the Trojan War. The first book in the set has already appeared: it is called "Iokaste: The Novel of the Mother-Wife of Oedipus" (retelling the Oedipus story from the point of view of his wife and mother). That story was set in Thebes, Greece, which was the capital of cattle country back then. It has been getting favorable reviews, including a recent one from the Associaed Press which has been appearing in various newspapers around the country.

The book which I am in the process of finishing is called "The Prince and the Cowherd" but it still needs a bit of polishing. In the sequel to The Prince and the Cowherd, a woman's wrists are tied to a bull's horns and she dies in consequence. Gruesome, perhaps, but it is part of the mythology.

You can learn more, if you like, by visiting my website.

http://www.tapestryofbronze.com

Again, thanks for the information!

Kind regards
Victoria

 

[flaboy]

The last bull I was hurt by was around 400lbs. Maybe 4-5 months old. Took my legs out, hyperextended my knee. Problem with the little guys is you don't expect it or maybe we (I) don't respect them as much as the larger ones.

 

[Southerngal]

Any bull can be dangerous we had one as a newborn but 10 stiches in my hubby's hand. Caught him in the web of his forefinger and thumb sliced it open to the bone. He never gentled down. Pulled him off the momma and to to sale the went

 

[VGrossack]

Someone asked why a person would be executed by tying that person's wrists to a bull's horns. I think it would be "justified" by several considerations:

(a) The bull would be considered responsible for the death of the woman, instead of the people who tied her wrists to its horns

(b) The gods, through the bull, would be considered responsible for the death of the woman, instead of the people who tied her wrists to its horns

(c) It made good entertainment, along the same lines as feeding Christians to lions in ancient Rome

Please note that I don't personally agree with any of these things, but am just trying to understand the attitudes of my characters.

Again, thanks for all your advice; you have been very helpful.

Victoria Grossack
http://www.tapestryofbronze.com

PS The work in progress (Pelops & Amphion) is what will be renamed The Prince & the Cowherd. I have not yet updated that part of my website.

 

[Gale Seddon]

I'm almost afraid to ask, but what would the woman (whose wrists were tied to the bull's horns) have done to deserve such a punishment?

 

[VGrossack]

Her name was Dirke, and she mis-treated a woman named Antiope. By mis-treatment, I mean that she broke up Antiope's first marriage and banished her from Thebes. Years later, Thebes conquered Sikyon (where Antiope had become queen) and Dirke enslaved Antiope. Dirke also abused her - beat her, I presume.

Dirke's deeds were discovered by Antiope's sons, Amphion and Zethos. In order to revenge their mother - and also because Dirke's original banishment of their mother made them end up being brought up as cowherds instead of as princes - Amphion and Zethos tied Dirke's wrists to a bull's horns.

It may sound complicated when written in summary, but it makes a great story!

Kind regards
Victoria
http://www.tapestryofbronze.com

 

[Just_a_girl]

Greek Mythology, how interesting.

I thought Dirce was dragged by the hair until dead or almost dead, and then her body was laid to rest near a spring or was it that the spring was formed from her body?

Antiope was Dirce's sister in law.

Zeus was the father of the twins born to Antiope. But didn't Antiope run off and leave her sons?

I guess the stories get changed through the years.

I'll check out your website. tell us more about your book.

 

[VGrossack]

I tried responding to this before but it did not seem to take. So I will try again.

There are multiple versions of the stories, and so I have to choose between them.

There are several possibilities for the father of Antiope's children: Zeus, the Regent Lykus, or King Epopeus of Sikyon.

Stories about Dirke make her out either as Antiope's aunt (in this case Lykus was Antiope's uncle) or Lykus' second wife (when Antiope was married to him first).

The formation of Dirke's spring - it is still called that - supposedly was formed from her body. But it is also supposed to be the same spring where Kadmos (also spelled as Cadmus) killed Ares' serpent, planted the teeth on the direction of the goddess Athena, and those teeth sprang up into full-grown warriors. To make it more interesting - and to revert to the bovine theme which belongs to this message board - Kadmos, credited for founding Thebes, was following a cow on Athena's orders. Athena told him to found a city at the same place where the cow sat down, and this happened to be Thebes.

I swear that when I write this out in the form of a novel it is far less confusing! But it helps if you like Greek mythology.

Kind regards
Victoria
http://www.tapestryofbronze.com