Question for Beefman

[WichitaLineMan]

In case that other thread gets locked there are a few of us very interested in your inference of Red Holstein in some Herefords. Please expand on this for us. Thanks!

 

[alacattleman]

yeah lookin' like a back up plan will come in handy

 

[Brandonm22]

Perfection was the bull that a lot of people ~20 years ago was accusing of having a half Red Holstein mama. When the association asked to see his mother suddenly she was missing. He was so suspect that I think at one time the AHA put an asterisk by his descendants registration number.

 

[Herefords.US]

Perfection was the bull that a lot of people ~20 years ago was accusing of having a half Red Holstein mama. When the association asked to see his mother suddenly she was missing. He was so suspect that I think at one time the AHA put an asterisk by his descendants registration number.

I was wondering if Beef Man was referring to "Perfection" (KLC RB3 Perfection) or perhaps to some other rumors that have made the rounds.

Here is a link to a newspaper article concerning "Perfection":
http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...McohAAAAIBAJ&sjid=Np4FAAAAIBAJ&pg=982,2499904

George

 

[Brandonm22]

Yep, that is the one. The letter L on the registration number was the part (amoung other things) I was forgetting.

 

[Beef Man]

Yes you are right, Perfection wa s 1 that was not all hereford,there was another bull much like him . A few years after the ----- hit the fan they were being collected at a bull stud just north of Minot N.D. I delivered a bull their for collection. Saw them in a small paddock over the hill west of the barns,asked about them and the crew laughed and stated you don't need them unless you are going into dairy biz. They were hereford marked and the thing that took my eye was they were the absolute tallest whitefaced bulls that I had ever saw. They were at that time collecting them for a very well known polled outfit . Don't know where they went from there but did know that some papers were pulled and some quite upset people. Just another thing that was hidden and only talked about in whispers. Heard one time that they really helped the milking ability on some cattle that were winning big all over the U.S. Don't know because also heard and beleive it to be true that they sired some huge birthweights. Use your own judgement and I'm fairly confident they have dissapeared. Let's all hope anyway.

 

[AudieWyoming]

We bred several Holstein heifers to a reg. Hereford bull in the early 80s. One thing you could count on prior to that time was no matter what you bred a Hereford to, they were going to stamp them with a clean white face.
The calves out of that bull were the " loudest" spotted, brockeled,and blazed faced things you ever saw. The bull looked standard Hereford marked to my amateur eye but we always figured Simmetal or Holstein blood.

We got several red ones, I was surprised to see that many red factors in our cows! I tried to breed those cows to a red factor bull but the red holstein calf was rare. @

 

[KNERSIE]

What I struggle to understand is ( and I am one of those saying the jumps in the frame race was too good to be entirely believable) with the red holstein and simmental influence why are all those tall bulls of the late '70s and '80s known to take every drop of milk away?

On a different note, one of my bull customers have a few red friesian X hereford cows that are calf raisers like I've never seen before. Granted he has the feed for them to milk to genetic ability since there is a beetroot factory on the farm and he feeds the byproducts to the cattle.

 

[farmguy]

How unusual was this? About 30 years ago we had a neighbor who had a herd of Holstein cattle and got started in the Angus business. Phased out the dairy as he got older and bred his Holsteins to Angus. This was when big cattle like Simmentals were the rage. A friend of mine went to buy a bull and said how tall they seemed. Then I went to his auction like all the neighbors do. He also sold his registered herd of Angus. I noticed that many had a little white on their bellies. If any want this man's name E mail me as both him and his wife are deceased. What does this mean, you tell me?

Afterthought: How many herds have this blood in them? Honest cattlemen who have no idea. Is this really a terrible thing? What do we do with this information? Do we go and strip the papers from every descendant of that herd? I don't know, farmguy.

 

[AudieWyoming]

Unfortunately the pedigree, papers, and registration, are only as good as the people behind them. There have always been unethical breeders, always will be. The only thing you can do is work to find true cattle breeders you like and can trust. The bottom line is does the animal do what you purchased him to do, all that paper is just topic for discussion. @

Afterthought: How many herds have this blood in them? Honest cattlemen who have no idea. Is this really a terrible thing? What do we do with this information? Do we go and strip the papers from every descendant of that herd? I don't know, farmguy.

 

[JHH]

Yes you are right, Perfection wa s 1 that was not all hereford,there was another bull much like him . A few years after the ----- hit the fan they were being collected at a bull stud just north of Minot N.D. I delivered a bull their for collection. Saw them in a small paddock over the hill west of the barns,asked about them and the crew laughed and stated you don't need them unless you are going into dairy biz. They were hereford marked and the thing that took my eye was they were the absolute tallest whitefaced bulls that I had ever saw. They were at that time collecting them for a very well known polled outfit . Don't know where they went from there but did know that some papers were pulled and some quite upset people. Just another thing that was hidden and only talked about in whispers. Heard one time that they really helped the milking ability on some cattle that were winning big all over the U.S. Don't know because also heard and beleive it to be true that they sired some huge birthweights. Use your own judgement and I'm fairly confident they have dissapeared. Let's all hope anyway.

I didnt read this thread till I posted on the other one. My friend also said they pulled 95% of the calves out of that bull they had but said they sure made up for it by selling bulls. :roll: That is what happened around here. I just couldnt sleep at night if I would try something like that.

 

[Hereford76]

I didnt read this thread till I posted on the other one. My friend also said they pulled 95% of the calves out of that bull they had but said they sure made up for it by selling bulls. :roll: That is what happened around here. I just couldnt sleep at night if I would try something like that.

JHH - this comment to me gets to the root that is holding back the breed and our industry. The man wasn't selling bulls he was selling Frame and why was he rewarded cause part of our industry wanted it. what is wrong with our industry - bottom line there are too many components pulling in different directions. until we develop cattle that work the way a true ranch needs them to and they match with what the feeder, the packer, the end consumer it will continue to be a whirlwind of never ending fads. personally i think we are starting to see a glimpse of what works for the rancher does make the feeder and packer money and it has been sped up quite a bit with higher energy and feed costs and i think it will only continue down this road. to me another component of the industry that needs to be scrutinized is marbling and i'll go as far as to say the word CHOICE. that word has all but sealed the deal for angus over the last however long and I guess i question it to a point.

angus cattle have dominated for a good stretch now - why? cause bare bones they come the closest to covering the bases on all levels of the industry and in my opinion number one capitalized on the word choice. with that said i truly believe that hereford influence is what is going to get our overall industry balanced. personally - i am not going to chase marbling to fit the mold and i sincerely doubt that our consumers will be talked out of the word choice... but when i ask a straight black commercial cow/calf man what he would like to improve in his cowherd - its the same two things everytime.... temperment and fleshing ability, ruggedness, heartiness, or what i refer to as "do-ability". and when i ask them what is holding you back with hereford influence it is the same everytime - we tried it and got burned or we have no market for the calves that aren't the same hide color... but they are teetering more and more with ever year that goes by and coupled with the fact that energy costs are skyrocketing i think all the segments might just teeter far enough.

 

[JHH]

I didnt read this thread till I posted on the other one. My friend also said they pulled 95% of the calves out of that bull they had but said they sure made up for it by selling bulls. :roll: That is what happened around here. I just couldnt sleep at night if I would try something like that.

JHH - this comment to me gets to the root that is holding back the breed and our industry. The man wasn't selling bulls he was selling Frame and why was he rewarded cause part of our industry wanted it. what is wrong with our industry - bottom line there are too many components pulling in different directions. until we develop cattle that work the way a true ranch needs them to and they match with what the feeder, the packer, the end consumer it will continue to be a whirlwind of never ending fads. personally i think we are starting to see a glimpse of what works for the rancher does make the feeder and packer money and it has been sped up quite a bit with higher energy and feed costs and i think it will only continue down this road. to me another component of the industry that needs to be scrutinized is marbling and i'll go as far as to say the word CHOICE. that word has all but sealed the deal for angus over the last however long and I guess i question it to a point.

angus cattle have dominated for a good stretch now - why? cause bare bones they come the closest to covering the bases on all levels of the industry and in my opinion number one capitalized on the word choice. with that said i truly believe that hereford influence is what is going to get our overall industry balanced. personally - i am not going to chase marbling to fit the mold and i sincerely doubt that our consumers will be talked out of the word choice... but when i ask a straight black commercial cow/calf man what he would like to improve in his cowherd - its the same two things everytime.... temperment and fleshing ability, ruggedness, heartiness, or what i refer to as "do-ability". and when i ask them what is holding you back with hereford influence it is the same everytime - we tried it and got burned or we have no market for the calves that aren't the same hide color... but they are teetering more and more with ever year that goes by and coupled with the fact that energy costs are skyrocketing i think all the segments might just teeter far enough.

That is what they tell me to.They say I tried that in 198? and it didnt work then why would it work now.
I have got two people talked into using herefords around here. I sure hope it turns out for them or I will never hear the end of it.

 

[Brandonm22]

What I struggle to understand is ( and I am one of those saying the jumps in the frame race was too good to be entirely believable) with the red holstein and simmental influence why are all those tall bulls of the late '70s and '80s known to take every drop of milk away?

And a lot of them were flat ribbed, short ribbed, fineboned, and flat muscled too. There were a lot better whitefaced Simmental bulls to be had around then too. Nobody wants to admit it now; but I think a lot of these guys were more honest than we are willing to give them credit it for. They took a 1960 Hereford and bred for nothing but height for about ten generations. Frame 4s replaced frame 2s, frame 6s replaced frame 4s, frame 8s, replaced frame 6s. You measured the heifers with a frame stick and kept only the tallest. Since skeleton is all you are breeding for a long leggy, lanky, post legged animal that looked like a Thoroughbred is probably what you would expect to get. I am not saying that a little Red Hostein, Simmental, Chianina didn't get added to the mix by some people along the way but I think most of the genes that wound up concentrated in a bull like MSU Knight Ryder were already out there in the Hereford herd of 1960.

 

[txag]

Yes you are right, Perfection wa s 1 that was not all hereford,there was another bull much like him . A few years after the ----- hit the fan they were being collected at a bull stud just north of Minot N.D. I delivered a bull their for collection. Saw them in a small paddock over the hill west of the barns,asked about them and the crew laughed and stated you don't need them unless you are going into dairy biz. They were hereford marked and the thing that took my eye was they were the absolute tallest whitefaced bulls that I had ever saw. They were at that time collecting them for a very well known polled outfit . Don't know where they went from there but did know that some papers were pulled and some quite upset people. Just another thing that was hidden and only talked about in whispers. Heard one time that they really helped the milking ability on some cattle that were winning big all over the U.S. Don't know because also heard and beleive it to be true that they sired some huge birthweights. Use your own judgement and I'm fairly confident they have dissapeared. Let's all hope anyway.

The Perfection situation wasn't just talked about in whispers. As was mentioned, all of his descendants have an "L" before their registration number and their papers were/are green instead of pink. As for the red holstein, I s'pose it's possible, but my guess would lean more towards Simmental. Perfection's daughters were big, tall, lighter-colored, and yes, heavier-milking females.

 

[Dixieangus]

so where the thread that started this i would like to read up on it

 

[txag]

so where the thread that started this i would like to read up on it

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=62852

 

[KMacGinley]

I worked on an ET operation in the mid 80s that did only polled herefords. Everybody was flushing to perfection at that time. The word was 1/2 red Holstein 1/4 shorthorn and 1/4 polled hereford. True or not, that is what they were saying. Everybody there knew about the talk. When it started to get out. 1 breeder from Ohio that we were flushing cows for aborted every recip carrying a perfection embryo. I believe that they are still in business. He was a standup guy. The rest let them calve.
A guy from my home town, the following year bought 10 perfection heifers for $5000 apiece. I was back home by then on my own and breeding cows for ABS. I told him that they were crossbreds before he closed the deal. He saw it as his ticket to fame and fortune. Shortly after he took delivery, the association kicked perfection out. His heifers were worth about $.58 after that.
Some of you have commented from time to time about my negative attitude towards purebred breeders. Believe me, I have seen some examples of out and out crooks, in fact, Most of the ones that I dealt with in those days were.

 

[Brandonm22]

I never heard anybody doubt that he was sired by Enforcer before. Now who/what his mama was has always been talked about. That was 27 years ago and his EPD profile is still off the chart. Birth Weight EPD is horribly too big, weaning weight, and yearling weight numbers surpass almost everything that has come before or since. After 27 years he still in the top 1% of the breed in the growth traits and scaryist 1% in birth weight. Most Charolais don't have that much growth.

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... 2623242123

 

[JHH]

Anyone have a pic of him?