Question about CAB

[MikeC]

Frankie:

If one parent is a registered Angus carrying a red gene and bred to a Red Angus, the calves could still qualify even though they're not black. They can already qualify if they're black. Angus Plus can already be CAB if they meet the specs.

So.................does this throw the black-hided specs out the window? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Frankie]

You can read the specs as well as I can.

Can I take that as, "I don't know"?

Or should I take it as, "I won't answer"?

You can take that as "I won't bother to spoon feed information to a regular Angus basher." That's you, by the way.

And I will receive it as "One who continues to bash every other breed will keep their mouth shut when it comes to MY breed".

By the way, I have some angus cows. I like them fine.

What you trying to hide Frankie?

Show me where I based your breed? I could have added some interesting info on the person thinking about buying some Char heifers, but didn't. I've got several horror stories to tell about Chars.

:lol: What am I trying to hide? Nothing. Do you somehow think that I have control of CAB? What people like you (who are jealous of CAB success) refuse to acknowledge is that CAB is a United States Department of Agriculture approved and monitored program. The Angus Assn can't just make changes when ever they get a burr under their saddle to do so. They have to get any changes approved by the USDA. They have made changes to CAB and probably will make others in the future. There's no secret to the best way of producing cattle that meet CAB specs.

If you have a source that says he can sell his tagged Red Angus calves as CAB, why are you asking the question on this page? If he's so knowledgable and trustworthy, ask him and let us know. I say that right now the only way he can sell red calves to CAB is if they are sired by an Angus bull carrying the red gene.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

To be "CAB" the animal has to be black hided.

And what determines "black-hided"?

Does the "Hair" have to be black? Or just the hide?

White Park cattle have "Black-Hides" but have white hair. Do they qualify?

I have been told by a Red Angus breeder that he can get tags from the Red Angus Association that will qualify his Red Angus crossbreds for CAB. I believe him.

Why all the secrecy?

MikeC- I don't think that it is intended to be "secrecy" - exactly. But it certainly is ambiguous - and that causes doubt, uncertainty and raises questions. It is the same thing as politics - "Never answer a direct question!" This is another reason why some breeders are sceptical about "Association" decisions - ANY association!

DOC HARRIS

 

[Frankie]

Word on the street is that there is an effort underway by some black breeders to open the AAA registry to include 1A RA cattle.

There has been a group pushing for the Angus Assn to start a separate registry for half blood Angus cattle, like LimFlex and Balancers. Some members of the Assn are dead set against it. I don't have any problem with it as long as it's kept separate from Angus registry. I really don't think the halfblood craze is going to last. Some Angus breeders also breed Red Angus and wanted the Assn to maintain the registration of those, too, but so far, they've not done that.

The Angus Assn tries to keep their members happy. Obviously this is not something where they're going to be able to please everyone, but none of this has anything to do with CAB as it stands today.

 

[Frankie]

To be "CAB" the animal has to be black hided.

And what determines "black-hided"?

Does the "Hair" have to be black? Or just the hide?

White Park cattle have "Black-Hides" but have white hair. Do they qualify?

I have been told by a Red Angus breeder that he can get tags from the Red Angus Association that will qualify his Red Angus crossbreds for CAB. I believe him.

Why all the secrecy?

MikeC- I don't think that it is intended to be "secrecy" - exactly. But it certainly is ambiguous - and that causes doubt, uncertainty and raises questions. It is the same thing as politics - "Never answer a direct question!" This is another reason why some breeders are sceptical about "Association" decisions - ANY association!

DOC HARRIS

It's not ambiguous if you read the specs:

"2.2 Phenotype. Cattle eligible for certification in Angus influence beef programs based on phenotype (appearance) must be predominately (51 percent) solid black. Blue roan, gray, etc., are not considered to be black or a percentage of black. Such variations can qualify only when it occupies 49 percent, or less, of the body area with the remaining 51 percent, or greater, being solid black. 1/ Angus influence cattle may be either horned or polled. Carcasses of certified live animals which display certain non-Angus characteristics (e.g.; dairy conformation, Brahman humps) shall be excluded as specified in the carcass specifications for approved programs.

1/ At times, a black hair coat can become sun bleached and appear to be a shade of brown, particularly on the back. If the base of the hair close to the skin is black then that entire brown tipped area should be considered solid black. However, if the hair color is brown to the roots, it should be considered as brown in color and the area will not contribute to the 51 percent black requirement."

And who montors them:

".2 Phenotype. Three options are available to ensure that live animals comply with the specified requirements. They are (1) continuous USDA supervision, (2) ante-mortem lot inspection, and (3) program monitoring. Under the first two options USDA personnel shall certify that the animals meet the specified requirements prior to slaughter. Procedures for these two options shall be developed on an individual plant basis and shall be approved by the local Meat Grading and Certification Branch (MGCB) area office. Under option 3, the procedures described in 3.2.1 shall be followed."

This is not some fly by night program. CAB sold half a billion pounds of product last year. It put some serious money into the pockets of producers willing to go the extra mile to produce meat that consumers prefer and are willing to pay a premium for.

 

[Frankie]

Frankie:

If one parent is a registered Angus carrying a red gene and bred to a Red Angus, the calves could still qualify even though they're not black. They can already qualify if they're black. Angus Plus can already be CAB if they meet the specs.

So.................does this throw the black-hided specs out the window? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

:roll:

 

[MikeC]

To be "CAB" the animal has to be black hided.

And what determines "black-hided"?

Does the "Hair" have to be black? Or just the hide?

White Park cattle have "Black-Hides" but have white hair. Do they qualify?

I have been told by a Red Angus breeder that he can get tags from the Red Angus Association that will qualify his Red Angus crossbreds for CAB. I believe him.

Why all the secrecy?

MikeC- I don't think that it is intended to be "secrecy" - exactly. But it certainly is ambiguous - and that causes doubt, uncertainty and raises questions. It is the same thing as politics - "Never answer a direct question!" This is another reason why some breeders are sceptical about "Association" decisions - ANY association!

DOC HARRIS

It's not ambiguous if you read the specs:

"2.2 Phenotype. Cattle eligible for certification in Angus influence beef programs based on phenotype (appearance) must be predominately (51 percent) solid black. Blue roan, gray, etc., are not considered to be black or a percentage of black. Such variations can qualify only when it occupies 49 percent, or less, of the body area with the remaining 51 percent, or greater, being solid black. 1/ Angus influence cattle may be either horned or polled. Carcasses of certified live animals which display certain non-Angus characteristics (e.g.; dairy conformation, Brahman humps) shall be excluded as specified in the carcass specifications for approved programs.

1/ At times, a black hair coat can become sun bleached and appear to be a shade of brown, particularly on the back. If the base of the hair close to the skin is black then that entire brown tipped area should be considered solid black. However, if the hair color is brown to the roots, it should be considered as brown in color and the area will not contribute to the 51 percent black requirement."

And who montors them:

".2 Phenotype. Three options are available to ensure that live animals comply with the specified requirements. They are (1) continuous USDA supervision, (2) ante-mortem lot inspection, and (3) program monitoring. Under the first two options USDA personnel shall certify that the animals meet the specified requirements prior to slaughter. Procedures for these two options shall be developed on an individual plant basis and shall be approved by the local Meat Grading and Certification Branch (MGCB) area office. Under option 3, the procedures described in 3.2.1 shall be followed."

This is not some fly by night program. CAB sold half a billion pounds of product last year. It put some serious money into the pockets of producers willing to go the extra mile to produce meat that consumers prefer and are willing to pay a premium for.

You forgot to add something:

UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE
Agricultural Marketing Service
Livestock and Seed Program
Washington, D.C. 20250

SCHEDULE G1 – FEBRUARY 2005

USDA SPECIFICATION FOR CERTIFICATION OF BEEF CARCASS
QUALITY AND YIELD CHARACTERISTICS OF OFFICIALLY GRADED BEEF
FOR THE CERTIFIED ANGUS BEEF PROGRAM

SCOPE
This specification is for certification by an Agricultural Marketing Service (AMS) agent of
U.S. Prime and Choice steer and heifer carcasses. AMS does not certify the breed or percentage of breed genetics for Certified Angus Beef program.

 

[Jovid]

It's not ambiguous if you read the specs:

"2.2 Phenotype. Cattle eligible for certification in Angus influence beef programs based on phenotype (appearance) must be predominately (51 percent) solid black. Blue roan, gray, etc., are not considered to be black or a percentage of black. Such variations can qualify only when it occupies 49 percent, or less, of the body area with the remaining 51 percent, or greater, being solid black. 1/ Angus influence cattle may be either horned or polled. Carcasses of certified live animals which display certain non-Angus characteristics (e.g.; dairy conformation, Brahman humps) shall be excluded as specified in the carcass specifications for approved programs.

So as long as it's hide is 51% black it qualifies.

From that we must assume that ALL black cattle have angus some angus influence?

Seems like to me we should promote good quality tennder beef no matter what the hide color.

 

[Frankie]

MikeC said:

You forgot to add something:

UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE
Agricultural Marketing Service
Livestock and Seed Program
Washington, D.C. 20250

SCHEDULE G1 – FEBRUARY 2005

USDA SPECIFICATION FOR CERTIFICATION OF BEEF CARCASS
QUALITY AND YIELD CHARACTERISTICS OF OFFICIALLY GRADED BEEF
FOR THE CERTIFIED ANGUS BEEF PROGRAM

SCOPE
This specification is for certification by an Agricultural Marketing Service (AMS) agent of
U.S. Prime and Choice steer and heifer carcasses. AMS does not certify the breed or percentage of breed genetics for Certified Angus Beef program.

Laughing. Is that the best you can do? After announcing on this board that CAB was allowing ear tagged Red Angus calves into the program? After announcing you knew someone who said so and you believed them? After dissing LA's report from the Angus Assn that it wasn't true? And the best you can do is pretend that this is news? :shock:

I didn't forget anything. CAB has never claimed any percentage of Angus genetics. But if they're black and meet CAB specs, I'm confident that they've got some Angus in them.

 

[MikeC]

Frankie:

CAB has never claimed any percentage of Angus genetics.

Nuff said. ;-)

Still befuddles me as to why they would even be allowed to use the name "Angus" and disallow the reds, which are just as much angus. And allow the Brangus which are a much lesser percentage.

By the way, I still believe my friend. You would believe him too, if you knew who he was. :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[la4angus]

I spoke with someone in the CAB office and my understanding is that as of now nothing has changed as to letting Red Angus and Angus Plus share ther CAB wealth.

So are you saying that Red Angus influence cattle are not accepted in CAB even though they do not meet the "black-hide" requirements, but DO meet the GLA (USDA) requirements?

The Angus Plus WOULD meet the "black-hide" criteria and would NOT be accepted?

Mike both of your statements are what I was led to believe this morning. Things could change in the next few month, but that's the way things stand now.

 

[Frankie]

Frankie:

CAB has never claimed any percentage of Angus genetics.

Nuff said. ;-)

That's the truth.

Still befuddles me as to why they would even be allowed to use the name "Angus" and disallow the reds, which are just as much angus. And allow the Brangus which are a much lesser percentage.

"They" are allowed to use the name "Angus" because "they" (the American Angus Association) own the program and that's what they chose to name it. Red Angus are Red Angus. Because of their color they generally don't qualify under the USDA approved and monitored specifications. Angus Plus aren't Brangus. Any animal can be CAB if they meet the specifications. That's the beauty of the program, IMO.

By the way, I still believe my friend. You would believe him too, if you knew who he was. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Yeah, right. :roll: You said in your original post
"Does anyone out there know the protocol to have Red Angus, or Red Angus cross calves qualify for CAB?"
If you have such a knowledgable, important, informed friend, why aren't you asking him this question instead of posting it on a discussion board?

 

[MikeC]

Here you go Frankie.......explain this:

http://www.ams.usda.gov/lsg/mgc/instruc ... MGC911.htm

 

[Frankie]

Explain what?

 

[MikeC]

Come on. Quit playing dumb. The fact that the "Certified Angus Beef" program has a "Red Angus" stamp.

Black-Hided Huh? Yea buddy! ;-)

 

[Frankie]

Come on. Quit playing dumb. The fact that the "Certified Angus Beef" program has a "Red Angus" stamp.

Black-Hided Huh? Yea buddy! ;-)

You're so funny, Mike. :lol: We've already identified the USDA spec that says animals with one registered Angus parent, no matter what color they are, can be considered for CAB. They still have to meet the carcass specifications. You'll note there's what? One R stamp and a backup? That shows me that not very many Red Angus are coming through under this program. Come on and tell us who your informed, smart friend is and why, if you think he's so in the know, you're asking this board how to get Red Angus qualified for CAB.

 

[MikeC]

Come on. Quit playing dumb. The fact that the "Certified Angus Beef" program has a "Red Angus" stamp.

Black-Hided Huh? Yea buddy! ;-)

You're so funny, Mike. :lol: We've already identified the USDA spec that says animals sired by a registered Angus bull, no matter what color they are, can be considered for CAB. They still have to meet the carcass specifications. You'll note there are what? two R stamps? That shows me that not very many Red Angus are coming through under this program. Come on and tell us who your informed, smart friend is and why, if you think he's so in the know, you're asking this board how to get Red Angus qualified for CAB.

Dearest Frankie, I don't want to know. I just wanted to know if YOU know. You took the bait too!

Besides "ANY" of the stamp numbers on that list could have an "R" with it.


OK, lets go over it again just for fun.

1-CAB................. must be 51% Black-hided.

2-CAB.................don't have to be black-hided.

3-CAB..................must meet Specs.

I think I got it now. ;-)

 

[Frankie]

[
Dearest Frankie, I don't want to know. I just wanted to know if YOU know. You took the bait too!

I do know. I read the USDA specs and nothing says they've changed. Red Angus can be CAB if they have a parent that's Registered Angus.

Besides "ANY" of the stamp numbers on that list could have an "R" with it.

But only two do have an R. Maybe that's a mistake and not a single Red Angus goes down that line?

OK, lets go over it again just for fun.

1-CAB................. must be 51% Black-hided.

2-CAB.................don't have to be black-hided.

3-CAB..................must meet Specs.

I think I got it now. ;-)

Here are the USDA specs again. Keep pretending they aren't clear. They're pretty cut and dried as far as I can see. (BTW, they don't say anything about "black-hided".)

http://www.ams.usda.gov/lsg/certprog/beef/cab.htmT

 

[MikeC]

Frankie:

I do know. I read the USDA specs and nothing says they've changed. Red Angus can be CAB if they have a parent that's Registered Angus.

What would you say if I told you that calves born of a Red Angus cow, sired by a Charolais bull, if they meet quality grade specs, are consistantly being stamped with the CAB stamp?

Would you believe it?

 

[Frankie]

Frankie:

I do know. I read the USDA specs and nothing says they've changed. Red Angus can be CAB if they have a parent that's Registered Angus.

What would you say if I told you that calves born of a Red Angus cow, sired by a Charolais bull, if they meet quality grade specs, are consistantly being stamped with the CAB stamp?

Would you believe it?

What color is the calf?