Purebred Vs. Crosses

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mhill

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I am looking for input on why I have such a hard time getting my purebred limos bred. The crosses were all bred on what would have been there first or second cycle after the bull was put to them. My vet said something about purebred breeders are focusing on things other than reproductive efficiency. Is this true. Additionally, what is the protocal for short cycling a heifer with Prostamate. The heifer bled off on Sat. Thanks.
 
Don't know anything about Limos; however, think your Vet is a touch misinformed.

I think purebred (or pureblood) breeders (of foundation or replacement stock) ARE concerned with reproductive efficiency as one of many traits they are breeding for. A breeder that isn't concerned with reproductive efficiency is probably only breeding for a terminal market (aka slaughter house) IMO.
 
mhill":1iyfjifr said:
I am looking for input on why I have such a hard time getting my purebred limos bred. The crosses were all bred on what would have been there first or second cycle after the bull was put to them. My vet said something about purebred breeders are focusing on things other than reproductive efficiency. Is this true. Additionally, what is the protocal for short cycling a heifer with Prostamate. The heifer bled off on Sat. Thanks.

Your vet paints purbred breeders with a broad brush. Are you using a bull or AI? Are you breeding on natural heats? Are they heifers or cows? Does the Limousin breed have a fertility EPD? There's lots of research that tells us crossbred cattle (in general) are more fertile than straightbred cattle.
 
mhill":20n0oit0 said:
I am looking for input on why I have such a hard time getting my purebred limos bred. The crosses were all bred on what would have been there first or second cycle after the bull was put to them. My vet said something about purebred breeders are focusing on things other than reproductive efficiency. Is this true. Additionally, what is the protocal for short cycling a heifer with Prostamate. The heifer bled off on Sat. Thanks.

I haven't worked with modern Limousins but 10-20 years ago, the breed had a very poor reputation for low fertility. A lot of those were very beefy, sculpted cows that also were poor milkers once bred. I have a friend who used to cross them with Gerts or Beefmasters and had excellent fertility on the F1 cross cows; but 3/4s or more Lims tended to calve on the late end of the 90 day calving season(he is now a red angus cross guy). I also worked on a purebred farm that ran them alongside Herfs and Angs and the Limis had a lower conception rate there too. I know a lot (including the color) has changed since then so I don't want to paint the breed with such broad strokes; but if I were you I would find a lonnnngg time Limi guy and sit down with him and discuss the pedigrees of your cows and their fertility.
 
I run a registered angus bull on my herd and breed on natural heats. I am having trouble only with the purebred heifers.
 
I'ld say your vet is right in some instances. There have been dozens of discussions on these boards about breeding slow breeding cows and keeping replacements from them. All it does is re-inforce the lack of fertility in subsequent generations. Too often a cow that's slow to breed back is slipped to the next calving cycle. I thnk the reasoning is that after all, she's registered and worth (cost me) a lot of money

dun
 
This is a long one - but you might find it interesting. You may have agenetic problem. You may have a feed problem. You may have a condition problem - in fact there are numerous conditions that can create your personal circumstance.

This is a stolen article with contact numbers at the bottom - OMAF puts this out - some of the graphs do not paste well, but you can get some additional ideas from the reading if you are so inclined.

Here is the link for a better view of the tables and graphs.

http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/liv ... 85-054.htm

Bez!

---------------------------------------------------
Breeding Season Management


Author: J. Field - Beef Specialist/OMAF; N. Anderson - Cattle Diseases Consultant/OMAF
Creation Date: 01 September 1997
Last Reviewed: 15 October 2003

Table of Contents
Introduction
Reproductive Rate
Why Cows Do Not Become Pregnant
Time of Calving
Body Condition
Suckling
Weight Changes
Body Condition Scoring
The Bull
Bull to Cow Ratio
Example Breeding Program (Tom O'Connor)
Length of Breeding Season
Advantages of a Shortened Breeding Season
Breeding Replacement Heifers
Artificial Insemination (AI)
Heat Detection
Heat Detection Aids
Insemination Methods
Estrus Synchronization
Pregnancy Examination
Monitoring Reproductive Efficiency
Summary for Improved Reproductive Efficiency
References

Introduction
In analyzing the cow-calf industry, the four factors that are more commonly used by producers as influencing profit are:

weaning weight of the calves
percent of cows weaning calves
annual cost of maintaining the cow
the price received for the calves
In evaluating research on cow efficiency, it is apparent that one of the more important factors influencing the overall productivity and efficiency of the beef cow herd is reproductive efficiency.

Reproductive Rate

Table 1 - Miles City Study (Montana 14 yr) No. of cows Non-Pregnant at end of breeding season Calves lost during Gestation Lost Near Birth Lost Birth to 2 weeks Calf Crop Weaned
12,827 17.4% 2.3% 6.4% 2.9% 71.0%



If the percent calf crop is to be improved, the number of cows becoming pregnant must be increased and the losses near or shortly, after birth decreased.

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Why Cows Do Not Become Pregnant
Much research has been done indicating that many cows fail to show heat early in the breeding season and also that conception rate at first service is low. If, however, proper management procedures are utilized the number of cows showing estrus the first 21 days of breeding as well as the conception rate at first service can be high.

Factors affecting the number of cows showing heat early in the breeding season and the number conceiving on first service are:


Showing Heat First 21 Days of Breeding
Conception Rate at First Service
(1) Time of Calving (1) Time of Calving
(2) Body condition of cows at calving time (2) Weight changes of cow near breeding time
(3) Age of the cow (3) Bull fertility
(4) Suckling (4) Bull to cow ratio





Time of Calving Cows calving late in the calving season generally have a lower pregnancy rate because they do not have time to show estrus early in the breeding season.

Cows require adequate nutrition and rest post calving in order to cycle normally. Conception rate is higher in cows bred 60 days or more after calving.

Body Condition is important in determining when a cow shows estrus following calving. Ninety-one percent of the cows in good body condition at calving had shown estrus by 60 days post-calving, as compared with 61 % of the cows in moderate condition and 46% of the cows in thin body condition.

Table 2: Body Condition at Calving and Heat after Calving
Days after Calving (%)

Body Condition at Calving
No. of Cows
40
50
60
70
80
90
100
120
Thin
272
19
34
46
55
62
66
70
77
Moderate
364
21
45
61
79
88
92
100
100
Good
50
31
42
91
96
98
100
100
100


Ref: Wiltbank

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Suckling Cows that are suckled have longer intervals from calving to first estrus. Flushing and 48-hour calf removal can be helpful in improving reproductive performance. Neither practice alone is as beneficial as a combination of the two.

Removing calves for 48 hours can be a problem in some situations. The best way to accomplish this is to combine calf removal with working the calves. Calves must not nurse for 48 hours to get maximum results.

Weight Changes near breeding time affect pregnancy rate. Sixty-seven percent of the cows that held their weight from calving to breeding conceived on first service as compared with 43% in cows losing weight during this period. The pregnancy rate after 21 and 90 days of breeding was also higher in cows holding their weight as compared with cows losing weight.

Body Condition Scoring As has been discussed, body condition of the cow at calving (moderate or good) and post calving to breeding will have a direct bearing on improved breeding efficiency.

Most scoring systems have been based on palpation of the back and hindquarters of the cow. Particular attention is given to the chine, loin. rump, tail head. hook bone and pin bone regions. Cows in one system are scored on a scale of 1 to 5. A score of 1 indicates severe under conditioning while a score of 5 is assigned to over conditioned obese cows.

Scoring System

Score 1 Individual spinous processes have limited flesh cover; the ends are sharp to touch; they give a definite overhanging shelf effect to the loin region.

Score 2 Transverse processes can be felt, but not prominent; rounded with some fat cover.

Score 3 Transverse processes can be felt with firm pressure; processes appear smooth; the overhanging shelf effect is not noticeable.

Score 4 Individual processes only felt with very firm pressure; rounded with no overhanging shelf effect; loin and rump appear flat; tail head and pins are rounded.

Score 5 The structure of the transverse processes, hook and pin bone region is not apparent; fat deposition is obvious and prominent.

Ref: E.E. Wildman




The relationship noted above has led to the recommendation of a


Mating Target Score 2½

It may not be necessary or practical to palpate all cows under most circumstances but an understanding of the scoring system and what is involved would allow eye-balling or visual appraisal of cows to evaluate condition.

Cows should be in moderate to good body condition at calving time to attain optimum reproductive performance.

Possible Scoring Use

Observe cows one or two months before calves are scheduled to be weaned. If cows are thin, supplement feed or wean calves.
Sort cows by body condition at weaning time - feed accordingly.
Prior to calving.
Middle of calving season (prior to breeding)
Suitable adjustments must be made to the feeding program to meet the target score if cows are indeed too thin.

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The Bull

Condition and nutrition of the bull prior to breeding are equally important to breeding efficiency.

Unfortunately very few bulls undergo any thorough breeding soundness examinations prior to the breeding season.

A breeding soundness examination would involve:

Conformation
Physical Examination
scrotum and testicles
scrotal circumference
penis and prepuce
Semen Evaluation
volume
concentration
mortality and morphology
Scrotal Circumference

Research has documented that testicular and scrotal development is directly related to sperm production and fertility in bulls. Scrotal circumference measurement properly done provides an aid in selecting sires with normal testicular development and is of considerable importance, particularly in yearling bulls.

Factors Affecting Bull Reproductive Potential

Testicular and scrotal development.
Ability to physically breed females.
Semen quality and volume.
Libido or serving capacity.
All four are of equal importance and testing would be a recommended procedure where practical before a bull is used.



Table 3. Scrotal Circumference in Centimetres* Age (months)
Classification
12-14
14-20
21-30
30+
Very Good
>35
>37
>39
>40
Poor
<30
<31
<32
<33





*The average scrotal circumference will vary according to breed.

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Bull to Cow Ratio

Table 4. Number of Cows per Bull
Bull Age
Mating System

Pasture Mating
Hand Mating

Yearling
10-20
20-30

2 year old
20-30
30-40

3 year olds & older
30-40
40-60



These figures vary considerably with the condition of the pasture, the sex drive of the bull, the fertility level of the cow herd and the length of the breeding season.

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Example Breeding Program (Tom O'Connor)
The O'Connor program involves five factors:

Sixty-day breeding.
Cows in moderate or good condition at calving time.
Cows gain in weight for three weeks before the start of breeding season and during breeding season.
Calves removed from cows for 48 hours at start of breeding season.*
Cows bred to fertile bulls.
* This factor may not be practical to the majority of commercial producers.

Eighty percent of the cows were pregnant after 30 days of breeding in the O'Connor herd that utilized these five factors. After 42 days of breeding, 87% were pregnant.

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Length of Breeding Season
The length of the breeding season is an important factor in determining pregnancy rate. It has been shown that late-calving cows have smaller calf crops than do early calving cows. The only reliable method for making sure cows calve early in the calving season is to have a short breeding season.

A 60-90 day breeding season should be a goal of most cow-calf producers with 45 to 60 days being more desirable. This could be achieved by gradually reducing the breeding season each year by 2-3 weeks which would result in fewer open cows being culled within a given year. Adequate nutrition and management are essential to success.

Table 5. Effect of Shortening the Calving Season
Year
No. of Cows
No. of Heifers
Length of Breeding Season (Mo)
Calving in Desired Time (%)*
Calf Crop
Weaning Weight
Pounds of Calf Per Cow Exposed

Actual
At 205 Days

1st
74
0
11
38
69
400
400
272

2nd
63
3
7
62
85
428
432
295

3rd
52
17
3
89
86
476
452
405

4th
58
23
2
100
83
509
459
499
*Of cows calved Ref: Spitzer

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Advantages of a Shortened Breeding Season
More concentrated management (time and labor).
More uniform group of calves by age, size and weight to sell at weaning.
More uniform group of calves by age, size and weight to feed as a management group if calves are kept and fed.
Early calving cows usually wean heavier calves.
Nutrient requirements of the cow herd will be much easier to meet during the critical stages of the production cycle with all cows calving within a shorter period.
Eliminate cattle with low fertility from the breeding herd.
With shorter breeding seasons success will be dependent on feeding and breeding management. Adequate nutrition and rest are essentials to fertile and cycling cows. Equally important is the health, condition and fertility of the bull if natural service is used. During the breeding season it is important that the herd be checked routinely to observe breeding progress.

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Breeding Replacement Heifers
When considering a shortened breeding season, heifer management at breeding will be of importance. Yearling replacement heifers should be bred 3 weeks prior to the breeding of the mature cow herd. Heifers will require a longer period of time to begin cycling and show heat after calving than mature females. Heifers bred before the main cow herd, will calve earlier in the season and will be cycling normally by the time the main cow herd is being bred the following year. If we want a heifer to be a good lifetime producer she must calve early. She must show heat and conceive early in the breeding season. Heifers calving late usually become late calving cows.

The lifetime production of beef females can be increased by calving at two years of age. This can be achieved by producers willing to provide the required nutrition and management.

Table 6. Reproductive Performance in Hereford Heifers as Influenced by Weight at Start of Breeding
(Tom O'Connor) Under 550 lbs 551-600 lbs Over 600 lbs
No. Heifers 40 166 45
Pregnant 60 days (%) 65 77 90
Calves weaned (%) 40 71 86
Losses pregnancy exam - weaning (%) 25 6 4
Wet cows pregnant - 2nd year (%) 18 57 69



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Artificial Insemination (AI)
Those considering or using AI should ensure that the breeding season does not become lengthened in attempts to settle cows. Top breeding management is required for successful heat detection and high conception rates with AI.

A suggested practice would be to breed the top end of the herd AI the first 25-30 days of the breeding season and use a clean-up bull or bulls for the remainder of the breeding period.

A sound health program and good nutrition are requirements of any breeding program. They become even more important in an AI program.

Proper handling facilities are essential to an AI program. They can be very simple or elaborate. Anything that can be done to reduce handling stress will greatly increase conception rates.

Success with artificial insemination requires top management. Management must be willing to provide the additional labor which will always be above the requirements for natural mating.

Heat Detection

Individual cow identification visible from a distance and adequate records are essential components of a successful heat detection program.

Table 7. Heat Detection
Number of Observation Periods
% Cows seen in Heat
Once a day
60
Twice a day
80
Three times a day
90
Four times a day
100


A higher detection rate of cows in heat has been observed before noon than during the afternoon and evening. Shortly after sunrise a special effort should be made to detect heat.

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Heat Detection Aids

Kamar Patch - pressure sensitive devices glued to the rump of cows for heat detection.
Sterilized Bulls - surgically altered bulls.
Teaser Bulls
Hopped up Heifers - heifers treated with hormones.
Chin Ball Marker - detector animal fitted with this marker.
Insemination Methods
Cleanliness during all insemination procedures is essential and is a critical point for success or failure.

Estrus Synchronization

Injection of a natural or synthetic prostaglandin will induce heat in sexually mature and cycling females. Cattle which are not reproductively cycling must not be included in an estrus synchronizing program.

Estrus synchronization with prostaglandins has the potential to improve and increase artificial insemination (AI) programs with cattle.

Controlled breeding programs will reduce time and labor involved with heat detection and shorten both the breeding season and calving season. Total Cost factors would have to be considered.

With good management this program can be successful.

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Pregnancy Examination

Pregnancy examination as a routine practice at the end of the breeding season can be an important tool in improving the efficiency within the beef cow herd. Identifying open cows which can be effectively marketed will reduce wintering costs and increase efficiency of production.

Pregnancy examination should take place 6 to 8 weeks after the end of breeding season.

Advantages of early pregnancy diagnosis in beef cattle are:

I. Gives warning of breeding problems (infertility and problem breeders)

II. Improved fertility - effective culling and marketing of problem breeders.

III. Reduced overhead costs - effective use of time, labor, facilities, etc.

IV. Guarantee pregnancy in females for sale.

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Monitoring Reproductive Efficiency
Records are essential to identify where losses occur in the reproductive cycle. This summary (Table 8) will permit calculation of reproductive performance indices that will enable you and your veterinarian to make breeding management decisions.

Records are essential to identify where losses occur in the reproductive cycle. The following summary will permit calculation of reproductive performance indices that will enable you and your veterinarian to make breeding management decisions.

Table 8. Monitoring Reproductive Efficiency

Heifers
Cows
Breeding History



1. Number exposed to natural service

__________
__________
2. Date bulls turned out

__________
__________
3. Date bulls removed

__________
__________
4. Number of bulls used in 2 & 3

__________
__________
5. Number exposed to artificial service

__________
__________
6. Date first AI service

__________
__________
7. Date last AI service

__________
__________
8. Total number of AI services

__________
__________
9. Number pregnant by natural service

__________
__________
10. Number pregnant by artificial service

__________
__________
11. Date of pregnancy check

__________
__________
Breeding to Calving Period (died = culled)



12. Number of open cows culled

__________
__________
13. Number of open cows sold

__________
__________
14. Number of pregnant cows culled

__________
__________
15. Number of pregnant cows sold

__________
__________
16. Number of abortions

__________
__________
17. Number due to calve

__________
__________
Calving History



18. Number of liveborn calves

__________
__________
19. Number of stillbirths

__________
__________
20. Date first calving

__________
__________
21. Date of last calving

__________
__________
22. Number barren

__________
__________



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Summary for Improved Reproductive Efficiency

Body condition score
Nutrition - bulls and cows
Breeding soundness examinations
Bull to cow ratio
Breed heifers - target age 14-15 months - 3 weeks before cows.
Breeding season 45-60 days
Calving season 45-60 days
Pregnancy Examination
Cull open or barren cows
Monitor performance.
A highly managed cow herd will be much more efficient and productive. Discuss your reproductive program with your local veterinarian, and/or AI company.



References
Beef Cow Efficiency Forum '84 L. Corah
Cattlemen's Library
Veterinary Clinics of North America. J.N. Wiltbank
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Don't shoot the messenger here, but you're not the first Limousin purebred breeder I've heard of with these problems.

Apparantly the double-muscled breeds have had fertility problems...I can't remember what study it was that I read it on, will have to snoop around - but basically it boils down to heavily muscled females being less fertile than leaner muscled ones. Am speaking in a broad way on this, and definately as in all things, there are exceptions to the rule.

(Okay, will definately expect some flack for typing that.)

Isn't the scrotal circumference of Limousin bulls as a breed average much smaller than many other accepted breeds? Could be tied into that fertility problem. Just mulling things over.


Take care.
 
Here's the article in PDF form pertaining to fertility and double muslced breeds (of which Limousin may not be applicable...sorry, still feeling a little under the weather and probably have them classifed wrong).

(Check page two for start of information on fertility.)

Link:

http://www.cbu.uib.no/liberles/pubs/angen2005.pdf


(Article refers to Limousin cattle on page three.)


Take care.
 
mhill":314e8y50 said:
I run a registered angus bull on my herd and breed on natural heats. I am having trouble only with the purebred heifers.

Are the heifers cycling? Are they cycling regularly? Continental cattle generally will reach puberty at a later age than British cattle. Are they in good condition? Are their scrotal EPDs good? There's research showing that daughters of bulls with larger scrotal measurements will cycle younger than heifers from bulls with small scrotal measurements.

Talk to your vet about CIDRs. They'll give the heifers a boost of fertility that might help them get bred. After they're bred? Well, you might want to consider if you'd want to buy a bull or heifer out of them if they belonged to someone else. Good luck...
 
The Limi breed has had a fertility problem & (which IS connected) smaller testicular size in their bulls. Back about 10 years ago, I got the Nat'l Limo Assn's "guidebook" which recommended using bulls with less than a 34cm yearling SC for TERMINAL breeding only. They said they had a major problem with females getting culled for poor reproduction. They implemented a fertility EPD (I believe) so I'm assuming they are improving. But, if you are raising large growth females with smaller easier keeping females, maybe the larger Limo heifers have not been fed out to their potential growth, which they would need to weigh more than a british heifer.

Just as a side note - not all continentals are late maturing. Simmental happen to be very early maturing - sexually. Earlier than Herefords.
 
Thats the biggest problem with limousins in my opinion. from my experience.
 
I used to do alot of semen testing. The limis as well as pieds and belgiums all had small SC. I would like to see a study that addressed the issue and could give me some answers i know that body builders on steroids lose their pride. Maybe some connection.
 

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