Purebred Red Charlois

[Anonymous]

J.P.,

Nothing you stated is correct. The percentage for a domestic purebred charolais is still 31/32. The charolais has been in the U.S. since the 40's and grading up programs from half bloods was basically over by the time the Simmental showed up. Also a half Simmental heifer was worth more in the Simmental association as half blood so why grade up on a longer process to a less hot exotic at the time? The red color comes from the usual suspects hereford, red dairy breeds, red angus and a few minor breeds like shorthorn or red poll. The black color came from angus or holstein. Many red charolais show white and are marked like either a red holstein or are baldies. Shows for these cattle exist in Canada as well as sales. They are sold along side white bulls at bull sales. The difference in registrations is a "Q" placed in the registration prefix. Even white animals produced froma Q animal can not loose the Q. I haven't seen a farmer care yet a bout the Q.

Mark
> Red charolais were created back in
> the 70's when charolais breeders
> started crossing with simmentals,
> the herdbook now lets charolais in
> with 15/16 blood, the red color is
> not all that rare, but not all
> that common, it is not able to be
> shown, and its registry is
> different do to its red factors



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[Anonymous]

sorry, you are right, it is 31/32.. i was incorrect on that i went back and re checked, however, simmental was crossed with charolais to make the charolais breed better, that explains the red color in some, but not all... if it came from herefords, they wouldn't be totally red... they would have white on their faces... shorthorn, im not sure, but aren't they apart of the original breed developed in France? dairy would NOT be crossed with a charolais and make red that would just be foolish.. red angus couldn't be suspect because the frame size of that breed is to small, simmental would be correct, in fact, in my herd i have a cow that is 15/16 and the 1/16 is simmental, all her calves can be registered pure bred,,,Q registery-with purebred breeders is not what they would prefer, if they raise showstock, they cannot be shown with the normal registered cattle

> Nothing you stated is correct. The
> percentage for a domestic purebred
> charolais is still 31/32. The
> charolais has been in the U.S.
> since the 40's and grading up
> programs from half bloods was
> basically over by the time the
> Simmental showed up. Also a half
> Simmental heifer was worth more in
> the Simmental association as half
> blood so why grade up on a longer
> process to a less hot exotic at
> the time? The red color comes from
> the usual suspects hereford, red
> dairy breeds, red angus and a few
> minor breeds like shorthorn or red
> poll. The black color came from
> angus or holstein. Many red
> charolais show white and are
> marked like either a red holstein
> or are baldies. Shows for these
> cattle exist in Canada as well as
> sales. They are sold along side
> white bulls at bull sales. The
> difference in registrations is a
> "Q" placed in the
> registration prefix. Even white
> animals produced froma Q animal
> can not loose the Q. I haven't
> seen a farmer care yet a bout the
> Q.

> Mark

 

[Anonymous]

that's what i'm talking about. the animal normally can't enter the french herd book when it is proven that there is other blood in it then charolais.

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[Anonymous]

what do you consider Full French 31/32 french, or FULL french? because i have trouble understanding how you can call an animal a certain breed when you've thrown all other sorts of blood into it. i asked a friend of mine, works at the bigest ai centre in belgium, and he said that if you have a charolais bull with any other genetics in him proven to be not charolais, then you have to state that, and you can't call it a charolais anymore (in belgium and france).

> Mike,

> In Canada we have Full French that
> are golden in color and will hold
> the color of the dam that they are
> bred to. The top charolais bulls
> in germany and sweden on test came
> from Canada and this included at
> least one red factor bull: HTA
> Desert Storm. The Germans and
> Swedes like red charolais type
> cattle. Many of the breeders of
> these cattle are in fact native
> Germans and Danes. North American
> Charolais breeders often use the
> best French bulls. However they
> also are not scared to compete
> with them in international
> breeding stock markets. They often
> enter european performance
> trials-and win.

> Mark



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[Anonymous]

JP,

When simmental came over the charolais had the Full French imports and these there the source of increased performance not the Pie Rouge French Simmentals that were imported at the time. No motive would exist to use a Simmental at the time (or any other time) because the charolais imports were much higher performance than the Simmentals. At the time it was posible to buy Full French bulls that were 1400 to 1500 Lb. The world record yearling weight for a bull from that peroid (1968) was 1736 LB. by Francie Borgal. Many of the best Simmentals were around 1200-1400 depending if they were dairy strain or beef (heavier). The dairy type looked like white faced ayrshires (eg Abricot). Any simmental charolais cross can be picked easily due to the Simmental white face and yellow hair and loss of muscle associated with the cross. The hereford and angus were used as ther base for plenty of charolais herds. After a couple of crosses they showed all the size and performance of purebreds many times better. Lastly many exotic breeds got their start by being bred to dairy herds of all breeds. It was much easier for a speculator to cut a deal with a dairy man to AI all his cows to a Maine, Simmental or Chianina than buy a bunch of half wild range cows to AI. And yes many dairy cattle are red even holsteins so the red color could come from this source.

Mark
> sorry, you are right, it is
> 31/32.. i was incorrect on that i
> went back and re checked, however,
> simmental was crossed with
> charolais to make the charolais
> breed better, that explains the
> red color in some, but not all...
> if it came from herefords, they
> wouldn't be totally red... they
> would have white on their faces...
> shorthorn, im not sure, but aren't
> they apart of the original breed
> developed in France? dairy would
> NOT be crossed with a charolais
> and make red that would just be
> foolish.. red angus couldn't be
> suspect because the frame size of
> that breed is to small, simmental
> would be correct, in fact, in my
> herd i have a cow that is 15/16
> and the 1/16 is simmental, all her
> calves can be registered pure
> bred,,,Q registery-with purebred
> breeders is not what they would
> prefer, if they raise showstock,
> they cannot be shown with the
> normal registered cattle



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[Anonymous]

Mike,

A domestic purebred is 31/32, a Full French has verified parentage all the way back to France. in Europe and Canada if you do not have papers on an animal you can not sell it as being a particular breed. Also some controversy has occurred concerning the validity of german simmental pedigrees. Apparently some british red angus bulls were used to introduce the polled gene. Many of the bulls imported as Full Fleckvieh were in fact 7/8 simmental. This resulted in several lawsuits. In my opinion much of the problem resultes fropm the chaos that german agriculture was in following WWII. Pedigrees were lost etc. By the wat the salers is the closest breed geneticall to the charolais. Because of this it doesn't surprise me that some rersidual red color is still around.

Mark
> what do you consider Full French
> 31/32 french, or FULL french?
> because i have trouble
> understanding how you can call an
> animal a certain breed when you've
> thrown all other sorts of blood
> into it. i asked a friend of mine,
> works at the bigest ai centre in
> belgium, and he said that if you
> have a charolais bull with any
> other genetics in him proven to be
> not charolais, then you have to
> state that, and you can't call it
> a charolais anymore (in belgium
> and france).



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[Anonymous]

if it is 100% french fullblood charolais, then you will not find any red colour. cream colour yes, but not red. they just don't make it to the standards of the breed, which have been so for more then 50 years. if they're red, it's a contamination from a red breed, and not a true charolais.

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[Anonymous]

Full French is 100% French blood so Charolais is white or golden white not red nor black, thats american crossbreeding stuff, as the same as many Charolaise cattle in the USA with fancy heads is because they use Chininas in the upgrading

> what do you consider Full French
> 31/32 french, or FULL french?
> because i have trouble
> understanding how you can call an
> animal a certain breed when you've
> thrown all other sorts of blood
> into it. i asked a friend of mine,
> works at the bigest ai centre in
> belgium, and he said that if you
> have a charolais bull with any
> other genetics in him proven to be
> not charolais, then you have to
> state that, and you can't call it
> a charolais anymore (in belgium
> and france).



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[Anonymous]

I know the guys that brought the first Chianinas over from Italy The char chi cross wasn't used too often becuase the result wasn't liked by too many people. Complaints included too much frame and lousy dispositions. The last point can not be over emphasized. Who needs a yearling bull that can take a six foot corral fence when ever he wants? Also the charolais had plenty of frame and the chi was used to improve this trait so why use them? growth rate we comparible so what is the improvement? Full French Bulls in general AI use in France that are yellow include Concil. Just take one look at him he is off white.

Mark

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[Anonymous]

> I know the guys that brought the
> first Chianinas over from Italy
> The char chi cross wasn't used too
> often becuase the result wasn't
> liked by too many people.
> Complaints included too much frame
> and lousy dispositions. The last
> point can not be over emphasized.
> Who needs a yearling bull that can
> take a six foot corral fence when
> ever he wants? Also the charolais
> had plenty of frame and the chi
> was used to improve this trait so
> why use them? growth rate we
> comparible so what is the
> improvement? Full French Bulls in
> general AI use in France that are
> yellow include Concil. Just take
> one look at him he is off white.

> Mark

I had some of the first Chianinas in South Dakota. They were terrible for disposition. If there was ever a cow that truly jumped over the moon, it was a Chi. Finally shot the last two I had and made hamburger of them. Couldn't catch them, and they didn't have enough milk to keep a calf alive. I still have some Chi semen in my tank from the '70's, if someone wants some rodeo/bucking bull blood, it would be great for that. They were definitely athletic. I would not advise using them on anything but older cows that can calve easily.



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[Anonymous]

Jeff,

xperience matches mine except for shootong them. Great growth lousy disposition and maternal traits. Another possible use in a rodeo would be as a hitch in a chuckwagen race. These things need a fast horse just to catch them. We did manage to tame them down by treating them like horses. Basically we put them ina en where they where in constant contact with people. They tamed down but they are definatlty high maintanance attention wise relative to other breeds. Also they are hard breeders; getting one to breed before 20 months on good feed is hard. They milk enough to feed a house cat that is about it. That all I kniow about this odd breed.

Mark

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[Anonymous]

Hi all, The points about the Chianina I hear also from people in Germany. In Holland we used for that reason the Marchigiana. It's family of the Chianina and the Romagnola. The Marchigiana is much more quite than the Chianina the daily gain is almost the same. They are a bit less high. and have a better meat quality and enough milk to raise a calf. We have them now for 15 years with great succes. We sold a lot of young bulls in Europe. Our customers crossed this buls with --Belgium blue (F1 with lots of muscle but also a much higher % of easy calving.) -- Charolais (F1 continous the daily gain but with a much better quality of the meat). -- Simmentalers (F1 better meat quality, more muscles) -- Salers (F1 More meat with a better quality) --Hereford, Angus (F1 Higher daily gain, better quality of the meat, Much more weight when they are ready for the slaughter.

If you are interrested in more information you can contact me by mail

Tom

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[Anonymous]

> This past summer at the sale barn
> a local guy sold a 2750# Red
> charlois bull and this past week
> he sold two cows that were 2100#.
> Has anybody else heard about this
> breed and if you have are they
> always so big?? Jake Here in Australia Red Charolais are called Red Factor and are no different to the white ones they often win awards in our show rings over here against the traditional colour. Charolais are good cattle but they eat a lot of feed so really are'nt viable when the seasons turn bad so really come into their own when crossed with other more hardier breeds like Brahman.



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