Pure vs. Commercial

[SF]

Best thing about the "pure" is that every animal automatically is a breeder and better in quality than a commercial group.

Must be so, because they are "papered and pampered".

Have a good one,

Bez!

Not True Bez.
Do you really think that you are truthfully anwsering a person who is asking a sincere guestion ?

Why is it not true?

I see it here stated here all the time - anything that is registerable (is that a word?) - HAS to be kept because of the high quality bloodlines in the parental background.

As for the question - well the questioner comes from a great part of the world and knows how to take my answer - SF knows me as well - so all is AOK with me.

You want to set me straight, I am all ears - I try to learn something new every day.

Errr .....I am always sincere - even when I am not.

Have a good one,

Bez!

Dang, I"m gone working for a day or so and I miss all the fun.

Rest assured LFF, that BEZ has the experience, the knowledge, and the expertise to answer most any question you may have in regards to cattle and a good wholesome life experience. This response of his was just his way of poking a little fun at some of the seedstock producers on this board.

 

[SF]

...I'd hoped that some of you Guru's would provide a better written answer than I can...

GURU status on this board does not necessarily mean you know anything about the cattle business, cattle, or much of anything. Only that you have made more than 1000 posts. Any idiot can make a post.

 

[SF]

...Lets start with papered and non-papered.
There are purebreds of all breeds that do not have papers due to the owners not wanting to be involved with the expense, paper work, and breed assocations.

As for registering only because of popular bloodlines , that is not normaly the case. I have some Herefords with very popular bloodlines that will not be registered even though they are good cattle and I will use them in my crossbred herd. If a breeder doesn't want to buy certificates or pay the association expenses and believes they have better cattle worth the additional cost they often register only the best.

The majority of registerable cattle are sold in certified programs or at the sale barn. They have often been fed out as beef or sold as commercial heifers and do not have papers.


Ok now to the orginal question. PUREBRED vs. COMMERCIAL
I'm not trying to include all the good and bad of both types, just the one's that come to mind. I hope that others will add their input.

Commercial cattle have documented proof, when purebreds used in a two and three controlled crossbreeding system, out preform purebreeds. The hoge-poge hienze 57 cattle usally will not out preform purebreeds. After crossing three purebred breeds you lose the most valued item (heterosis) and the benifits that go with it. I'm sure some people will not agree with that statement, however there are too many studies that prove it to be so. Commercial producers must use purebreds to get the best crossbred cattle. Most crossbred cattle have no predetermined breed plan and do not preform as well as purebreds.

Purebred cattle often have a area of production in which they surpass all cross breeds. Examples : Angus and Herefords marble and fertility , Zulu cattle tolerate heat , Connential breeds add size , dairy cattle milk. PS I'm not stating that any of the listed breeds are the best in class.
The purebreds are needed to give the commercial producers the best genetics to creat their herds. Purebreds often have genetics that excel in beef production and therefore target a specified market program. Crossbred cattle using a percentage of purebreeds can also meet targeted programs.

Registered cattle are different that purebred cattle. Registered cattle are papered purebreds that should be the cream of the crop , however that is not always so. Many are over pampered and do not accurately reflect what a purebred or commercial producer needs.
Registered cattle have age , source , and genetic vertification. They should increase profitability of cattle production , again this is not always the case. Many producers are more interested in show qualities and prestige instead of productivity.
The purebred producer needs a reliable and honest registered producer. There are many honest seedstock producers and if you are willing to invest the time , research , and money you can produce cattle that increase profit. Be sure to do your research wisely before buying or attempting to become a seedstock producer.

I hope this answers some of your guestions and I hope other will reply with more input.

Pretty good answer. I will add a couple of comments:

Purebred versus fullblood. Many There is a difference. Fullblood means that the animal has bloodlines that go back within the breed without any percentage blood animals in the pedigree. Different associations have different requirements for pureblood registrations and some associations even have percentage blood registrations.

 

[SF]

...I understand sarcasm but what about the newbies the unfamiliar readers who do not know the personalities. If someone was really trying to learn and could not tell when someone was just "pulling their leg" , how do you think some post are received. People come to the board to learn. It is good to share a laugh and maybe we should say something like "just kidding" if we aren't serious. Is the board going to be about having fun or helping others. I thought it was both. Our comments need to be stated in such a manner that new readers understand when we are funning and when we are serious.

I agree with your point, but this is still an internet bb. I would not go to an interent bb to learn how to rebuild the engine in my pickup. I might go to get others opinions on a given product, but not to actually learn how to rebuild it. If people are on this bb to learn how to raise cattle, then their cattle are in deep sh?t. This is a great place to share ideas, swap info, and have a little fun, but this is not a classroom to learn how to raise cattle.

For all whom I've now offended. This is just my opinion. Use this board and others as you will.

 

[VanC]

Any idiot can make a post.

I'm a prime example. ;-)

 

[IluvABbeef]

Chew me out if this has been mentioned before. But what are the good things, bad things and everythings of these two types of breeding operations :?: I'm curious.

All sorts of good things about both and all sorts of bad things about both.

Best thing about the "pure" is that every animal automatically is a breeder and better in quality than a commercial group.

Must be so, because they are "papered and pampered".

Have a good one,

Bez!

Bez-Here we are into the sometimes- misunderstood area of "Semantics", or the 'meaning' of words. What does IluvABbeef mean by "Pure" and "Commercial"? Your answer is very ambiguous. The extensive answer to ILABB's question fills many books, and then only when we know exactly what the question is!

A "Glossary of Terms" might be a good beginning, and then we could select specific terms to identify and explain. I think that ILABB should come back and help clarify the meaning of her question before we start "shooting arrows into the air" - because then we will be into another two or three week series of "Who Shot Cock Robin" answers and nothing will be settled. We have just 'been there and done that' last week with a couple of posters!

DOC HARRIS

Just had to correct you there Doc!! This here gal knows what purebred and commercial operations are, she just wants to go into more detail of those differences of the two types of cattle operations (purebred vs. commercial). Besides, I just learned about this in class (An Sci) on Friday, so it IS a little new to me. Besides, some of the posts (by LFF, Brandonm2, and Frankie) where sort of the type of answers I'm looking for.

Sorry for not being specific enough.

Now Doc, you may have to provide a "Glossary of Terms" for me ;-) especially when Brandonm2 mentioned something about F1 cattle (and nobody answered my last post when I asked about that :x Grrrrrr.). So here's a stupid question for ya: what the heck is F1 and what does it stand for?

Oh yeah, if anyone feels the need to "pull my leg" and have a bit of fun with this "university-student" greenhorn (hey, that don't make me no city-kid that knows diddly squat about cattle in general), just put this happy face ( ;-) ) anywhere on your post. ;-) :lol:

Have a good day ya'll!!

Karin

 

[Frankie]

Now Doc, you may have to provide a "Glossary of Terms" for me ;-) especially when Brandonm2 mentioned something about F1 cattle (and nobody answered my last post when I asked about that :x Grrrrrr.). So here's a stupid question for ya: what the heck is F1 and what does it stand for?

Karin

F1 = first filial generation.
The term "F1" refers to the first generation of a cross between two purebreds. It's a scientific term, not just a cattle term. It's used in crossing strains of beans or corn or whatever. For use on this board, it usually means when you breed a purebred cow of one breed to a purebred bull of another, such as Angus X Hereford, Simmental X Angus, etc.

Here's a link to Wikipedia that can give you more info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filial

 

[IluvABbeef]

...I understand sarcasm but what about the newbies the unfamiliar readers who do not know the personalities. If someone was really trying to learn and could not tell when someone was just "pulling their leg" , how do you think some post are received. People come to the board to learn. It is good to share a laugh and maybe we should say something like "just kidding" if we aren't serious. Is the board going to be about having fun or helping others. I thought it was both. Our comments need to be stated in such a manner that new readers understand when we are funning and when we are serious.

I agree with your point, but this is still an internet bb. I would not go to an interent bb to learn how to rebuild the engine in my pickup. I might go to get others opinions on a given product, but not to actually learn how to rebuild it. If people are on this bb to learn how to raise cattle, then their cattle are in deep sh?t. This is a great place to share ideas, swap info, and have a little fun, but this is not a classroom to learn how to raise cattle.

For all whom I've now offended. This is just my opinion. Use this board and others as you will.

I didn't post this thread because I want to learn how to raise cattle: heck, there's books out there and other things that folks can use if they want to know how to raise them! AND I KNOW HOW TO RAISE THE LOUSY BEGGARS!!! I just posted this thread because there are many folks out there who have opinions about how different cattle operations are run and what their preferences are.If people have questions they want to ask regarding the cattle industry, no matter how utterly stupid and classroom-related their questions may be, LET THEM ASK!!! SF and others, this is what a Q and A forum is for!

That is my honest opinion to those whom I have and haven't offended yet.

 

[IluvABbeef]

Now Doc, you may have to provide a "Glossary of Terms" for me ;-) especially when Brandonm2 mentioned something about F1 cattle (and nobody answered my last post when I asked about that :x Grrrrrr.). So here's a stupid question for ya: what the heck is F1 and what does it stand for?

Karin

F1 = first filial generation.
The term "F1" refers to the first generation of a cross between two purebreds. It's a scientific term, not just a cattle term. It's used in crossing strains of beans or corn or whatever. For use on this board, it usually means when you breed a purebred cow of one breed to a purebred bull of another, such as Angus X Hereford, Simmental X Angus, etc.

Here's a link to Wikipedia that can give you more info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filial

Thanks Frankie.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Now Doc, you may have to provide a "Glossary of Terms" for me ;-) especially when Brandonm2 mentioned something about F1 cattle (and nobody answered my last post when I asked about that :x Grrrrrr.). So here's a stupid question for ya: what the heck is F1 and what does it stand for?

Karin

F1 = first filial generation.
The term "F1" refers to the first generation of a cross between two purebreds. It's a scientific term, not just a cattle term. It's used in crossing strains of beans or corn or whatever. For use on this board, it usually means when you breed a purebred cow of one breed to a purebred bull of another, such as Angus X Hereford, Simmental X Angus, etc.

Here's a link to Wikipedia that can give you more info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filial

Thanks Frankie.

Karin (and Frankie)- A slight correction, Frankie. F1 refers to the first generation of a MATING between a male and a female, plant OR animal, not necessarily between purebreds.

DOC HARRIS

 

[SF]

I didn't post this thread because I want to learn how to raise cattle: heck, there's books out there and other things that folks can use if they want to know how to raise them! AND I KNOW HOW TO RAISE THE LOUSY BEGGARS!!! I just posted this thread because there are many folks out there who have opinions about how different cattle operations are run and what their preferences are.If people have questions they want to ask regarding the cattle industry, no matter how utterly stupid and classroom-related their questions may be, LET THEM ASK!!! SF and others, this is what a Q and A forum is for!

That is my honest opinion to those whom I have and haven't offended yet.

You need to re-read my post. I was responding to anothers comments. Since you've jumped in, I'll go ahead respond back to you. Based upon what you just posted, you know how to do all of this cattle raising stuff and you are just asking the question for the shy and ignorant among the interent lurkers that are afraid to ask. Yeah right.
You can post all your little emotional icons, they don't phase me at all.
My point in my previous post was and still is: If you are looking to become educated about the cattle business on this bb or "Q&A" forum as you've stated, you and your cattle are going to be in trouble. You are correct, it is a Q&A forum, a place for sharing ideas and comparing, but your learning as you go with cattle or any other living creature is a bit risky? Don't ya think?

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Now Doc, you may have to provide a "Glossary of Terms" for me especially when Brandonm2 mentioned something about F1 cattle (and nobody answered my last post when I asked about that Grrrrrr.). So here's a stupid question for ya: what the heck is F1 and what does it stand for?

Karin - A "Glossary of Terms" consists of a list of difficult, technical or unfamiliar terms with definitions for some particular field of knowledge, often included in alphabetical order at the end of a textbook, or included in a specific piece of work relating to the subject(s) at hand. Any Beef Breed Association or Publisher of Specific articles should be able to provide you with an extensive Glossary of Terms relating to your needs at the moment. You alluded to ".....a stupid question for yu..." in regard to the definition of F1 (filial) and what it stands for. That has been answered by others on this same thread (subject ) - some claim it means mating purebred individuals to other purebred individuals of another breed, and some claim it means the "First Generation" matings of ANY pair, such as in composite or cross-breeding matings - - -and here is why I mentioned "Semantics" in my first reply to this subject. The 'meaning of words' is critical to avoid mis-understandings - -such as this point in this paragraph - F1. In everyday vernacular the term "cow" does not necessarily mean "the female of a species". Case in point: an individual bovine animal being used in a group in 'cutting horse' contests is referred to as a "cow", when in reality most of them are not "cows" at all, but heifers or steers - nevertheless they are called 'cows'. The same principle applys here with F1 designations.

Karin - please take this suggestion seriously - as it comes from one who has spent many years going to University classes, and who has taught for several years also - GET A GOOD DICTIONARY AND SEVERAL "GLOSSARIES OF TERMS". It will assist you in your 'learning processes!' It helps separate the 'Wheat from the Chaff'!

As I told my three sons when they were growing up and would ask me, "Dad, what does so-and-so mean?" - I would say, "Look it up in the dictionary! Then, you will remember it!"

DOC HARRIS

 

[KMacGinley]

For what it's worth, I was pretty sure Bez was just being sarcastic and having a little fun. Kinda like I do sometimes. Besides, I've seen enough of his posts to know he wouldn't give an answer so lacking unless he was joking around.

I understand sarcasm but what about the newbies the unfamiliar readers who do not know the personalities. If someone was really trying to learn and could not tell when someone was just "pulling their leg" , how do you think some post are received. People come to the board to learn. It is good to share a laugh and maybe we should say something like "just kidding" if we aren't serious. Is the board going to be about having fun or helping others. I thought it was both. Our comments need to be stated in such a manner that new readers understand when we are funning and when we are serious.

LFF- Top quality answer, my friend! That is exactly what I was referring to in regard to some of the rather ridiculous posts we encountered in the last few weeks. It is discouraging to sit at this machine for several hours attempting to be "Dead On" serious, and have your ideas and efforts fall on dead ears.

DOC HARRIS

Case in point was when I first stumbled on to this new hobby of mine here and I made a joke about how we should boycott Charolais, Limousin and Salers cattle because they came from France and it was the duty of every patriotic american to avoid all things french. I think even Doc chewed me out a little for suggesting such a thing, and then I discovered these. :shock: :lol: Which are helpful in letting people know if you are kidding, angry, serious, Shocked ( which I have been alot lately on here). So I try to use them when I am being less than serious.

 

[IluvABbeef]

I didn't post this thread because I want to learn how to raise cattle: heck, there's books out there and other things that folks can use if they want to know how to raise them! AND I KNOW HOW TO RAISE THE LOUSY BEGGARS!!! I just posted this thread because there are many folks out there who have opinions about how different cattle operations are run and what their preferences are.If people have questions they want to ask regarding the cattle industry, no matter how utterly stupid and classroom-related their questions may be, LET THEM ASK!!! SF and others, this is what a Q and A forum is for!

That is my honest opinion to those whom I have and haven't offended yet.

You need to re-read my post. I was responding to anothers comments. Since you've jumped in, I'll go ahead respond back to you. Based upon what you just posted, you know how to do all of this cattle raising stuff and you are just asking the question for the shy and ignorant among the interent lurkers that are afraid to ask. Yeah right.
You can post all your little emotional icons, they don't phase me at all.
My point in my previous post was and still is: If you are looking to become educated about the cattle business on this bb or "Q&A" forum as you've stated, you and your cattle are going to be in trouble. You are correct, it is a Q&A forum, a place for sharing ideas and comparing, but your learning as you go with cattle or any other living creature is a bit risky? Don't ya think?

Okay SF, I'm sorry for barging in like that on you and the rest. I realize that and I feel kinda bad doing that.

And yes, you are right, I can't rely on this forum to "become educated about the cattle business..." There are lots of other places where I can learn, such as reading a cow-calf manual, attending lectures on the cow-calf industry at university or wherever, etc.

I've gotten sh!t in the past for not MMOB, so don't be surprised that you're not the first to shoot me down.

I hope my apology is satisfactory enough. If it ain't, well, let me know and I'll see what I can do about it, even if it means catching heck again.

Sincerely,

Karin

 

[IluvABbeef]

Now Doc, you may have to provide a "Glossary of Terms" for me especially when Brandonm2 mentioned something about F1 cattle (and nobody answered my last post when I asked about that Grrrrrr.). So here's a stupid question for ya: what the heck is F1 and what does it stand for?

Karin - A "Glossary of Terms" consists of a list of difficult, technical or unfamiliar terms with definitions for some particular field of knowledge, often included in alphabetical order at the end of a textbook, or included in a specific piece of work relating to the subject(s) at hand. Any Beef Breed Association or Publisher of Specific articles should be able to provide you with an extensive Glossary of Terms relating to your needs at the moment. You alluded to ".....a stupid question for yu..." in regard to the definition of F1 (filial) and what it stands for. That has been answered by others on this same thread (subject ) - some claim it means mating purebred individuals to other purebred individuals of another breed, and some claim it means the "First Generation" matings of ANY pair, such as in composite or cross-breeding matings - - -and here is why I mentioned "Semantics" in my first reply to this subject. The 'meaning of words' is critical to avoid mis-understandings - -such as this point in this paragraph - F1. In everyday vernacular the term "cow" does not necessarily mean "the female of a species". Case in point: an individual bovine animal being used in a group in 'cutting horse' contests is referred to as a "cow", when in reality most of them are not "cows" at all, but heifers or steers - nevertheless they are called 'cows'. The same principle applys here with F1 designations.

Karin - please take this suggestion seriously - as it comes from one who has spent many years going to University classes, and who has taught for several years also - GET A GOOD DICTIONARY AND SEVERAL "GLOSSARIES OF TERMS". It will assist you in your 'learning processes!' It helps separate the 'Wheat from the Chaff'!

As I told my three sons when they were growing up and would ask me, "Dad, what does so-and-so mean?" - I would say, "Look it up in the dictionary! Then, you will remember it!"

DOC HARRIS

Thanks Doc, I'll remember that. I'm getting some pretty good courses here at the U of Alberta under my belt, and this is just the beginning of my An Sci studies too, I'll admit. I do have a good dictionary, BTW! I just have to make use of it a bit more often.

Thanks again for the advice.

Regards,

Karin.

 

[VanC]

Case in point was when I first stumbled on to this new hobby of mine here and I made a joke about how we should boycott Charolais, Limousin and Salers cattle because they came from France and it was the duty of every patriotic american to avoid all things french.

I remember that. Heck, I even gave you a little guff over that one and I was pretty much brand new on here, too. Once I realized you were just kidding I felt kinda bad. Just shows that what we're thinking when we post something might not be taken the same way on the other end when somebody else reads it.

 

[1848]

Chew me out if this has been mentioned before. But what are the good things, bad things and everythings of these two types of breeding operations :?: I'm curious.

Make money..or make a living doing something you enjoy.

 

[IluvABbeef]

Chew me out if this has been mentioned before. But what are the good things, bad things and everythings of these two types of breeding operations :?: I'm curious.

Make money..or make a living doing something you enjoy.

That sounds like a good idea, thanks; there are a lot of things I enjoy doing, including working with cattle, though it's kind of hard to choose which sticks out the most for me. I'll start thinking about that a little more seriously once I'm near the end of school. I've still got a long road to travel and still got time!

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Chew me out if this has been mentioned before. But what are the good things, bad things and everythings of these two types of breeding operations :?: I'm curious.

Make money..or make a living doing something you enjoy.

That sounds like a good idea, thanks; there are a lot of things I enjoy doing, including working with cattle, though it's kind of hard to choose which sticks out the most for me. I'll start thinking about that a little more seriously once I'm near the end of school. I've still got a long road to travel and still got time!

IluvABbeef- The MOST important factor for you at this stage of your life is to get the BEST education that you can, and WHEN you DETERMINE what it is you want to do for the rest of your life - Do it to the very BEST of your abilities! If it is hard for you to decide what you wish to do - don't do it. Do ONLY what you have a passion for doing. Then you will be successful at your chosen path. If you don't like what you are doing, your life will be like Chaff in the wind! Even if you make a fortune doing it - you will be a failure if you don't like your life.

DOC HARRIS

 

[TheBullLady]

We've done both.. commerical and registered, and for us, the registered has been a better option.

Marketing is an important aspect of a purebred operation, so being able to talk to others and meeting possible customers is a big part of it. I have a job where I meet a lot of folks in the same industry, so I have an advantage. I think you should do what you enjoy.. if you'd rather have a herd of good commercial cattle that do really well at the auction or in the feed lot, that's an admirable position as well.