Pro's and Con's of Electronic ID

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4CTophand

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This has been a hot topic for quite some time, but I haven't ever seen it in any of the subject material on this site.
I feel like it is a positive thing and I have the following Pro's and Con's

Pro

1. Being able to trace both good and bad product back to the owner/producer.
2. Make the commercial cattle raiser aware of what he/she is raising and to improve carcass traits
3. Make the cattle raiser stand behind his/her product and weed out the undersireables.
4. Make the commercial cattle raiser aware that not only are you being paid for lbs produced, but the quality of those pounds.
5. Being able to compare those who do a poor job to those who does a great job.
6. Being able to trace the management of any calf from birth, to stocker, to feed yard, to slaughter; for the consumer.
7. Increased awareness of how health, nutrtion, reproduction, and genetics play important roles in producing an animal with a quality carcass.
8. Track use of hormones and poor injection site users in beef cattle operations across the US. (which are many)
9. Track those producers that incorporate Best Management Practices (BMP) into their operations using programs like BQA.
10. Paid premiums for operators using BMP's and EID.
11. Consumer approval
12. Cattle industry in the US would have only "20 breeds or even 5" in production instead of 120.

Con

1. The worst cattle producers would call EID an infringement on their privacy and would be whiners instead of "stand behind-ers".
2. Cattle producers who didnt incorporate BMP's into their operations would be docked accordingly.
3. Many of the Breeds of cattle in the US today would be eliminated in production agriculture because of subpar genetic traits.
4. The producers of these certain cattle breeds would be put out of business, over time, because of lack of interest.
5. Some cattle raisers would be known publicly for their lack of management skills, poor judgement and unwillingness to stand behind their product.
6. Several purebred cattle breeders would be put out of business due to lack of interest by buyers at every production level.
7. No premiums paid.
8. Purchase of EID readers and ear tags, which in some cases are not that cheap.
9. The show cattle jockey would have to learn what an EPD is.
10. The commercial cattle raiser would have to get on board with EPD's.
11. Quality Grades in fed cattle for Beef would be as follows: Prime, Choice and the rest- docked accordingly.
 

Angus Cowman

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I use EID tags we put them in the week before the calves leave the farm
and as far as EPD in the commercial herd I think anyone in this business that don't use epd's are costing themselves alot of money
When buying bulls I look at Epd's and conformation and looks 2nd
No I don't buy bulls I don't like as far as conformation goes but if that bull doesn't have the EPD's I am looking for I don't waste my time looking at him
as has been said before, I am selling quality beef not just lbs of beef and I have the data to prove it
becasue I get all the carcass data back even if I don't retain ownership on my calves which I do most of the time
 

Red Bull Breeder

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Most people just don't feel the need for more goverment control. If all beef produced was choice or prime the packers would have a hay day because they would not have to pay any premiums to get what they want.
 

dun

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The only problem I see with the pro side is that it's hard unless you retain ownership to get back carcass data. Some marketing programs like the Missouri Premier Beef Marketing program will help, but the feeders will charge for the data. Some charge to the point that it gets kind of rediculous. We've been doing EID for 4-5 years so obviously I think it's a good idea who'stime has come.
One problem that really needs to be addressed is the lack of a serious standard. Some tags almost need to be in contact before they can be read others can be read from a distance. Needs to be the ability to read the tags from at least a couple of feet and read quickly.
 

novatech

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The EPA wants to tax on cow farts (bad). The government wants to track for disease control(good), you want to track for for meat quality and of course the government will want a piece of that pie too(dumb). So what will all this end up costing the cattlemen and the consumer?
As far as meat quality there is already a system in place. It is a free market competitive system within a capitalistic society. .
 
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4CTophand

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novatech":124a05uq said:
The EPA wants to tax on cow farts (bad).They are dreaming and so are you The government wants to track for disease control(good), you want to track for for meat qualityDoesn't everyone? and of course the government will want a piece of that pie too(dumb)hearsay unless you have sometihng like real data to back it up. So what will all this end up costing the cattlemen and the consumer?tags cost a dollar readerrs vary - Premiums would pay for this cost; is it really hard for you to tag your calves with an EID tag before you ship? If so, I am sorry you have to work so hard
As far as meat quality there is already a system in place. It is a free market competitive system within a capitalistic society. Yes a free market in our society where we continue to lose more consumers of our products because of lazy people like you and others that wont stand behind their products-- what if you went to Sears and bought a washer and they told you that you were on your own as they didnt stand behind their product-- would you buy it? You can't be a hypocrit only when it is convenient for you to do so. If you don't know how to market cattle that is of higher quality then I would suggest you learn and not try and have it handled by bureaucrats.
Again, you miss the point--- marketing a product happens AFTER you have produced it. EID would force all cattle raisers to stand behind what they raise, which would force them to invest in some carcass quality type cattle and the rest of the misinformed like you would be working for those who do it right

Thanks for your reply as it is always interesting what others say.
 

Brandonm22

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Pro

"1. Being able to trace both good and bad product back to the owner/producer."

True but if both good and bad producers are comingling their trailer loads at the sale barn, I don't see how you use the information.

"2. Make the commercial cattle raiser aware of what he/she is raising and to improve carcass traits"

As Dun has already stated, it is very difficult to get that data back and unless you are a seedstock producer or are trying to enroll your calves into some sort of premium program I don't see where the data is worth paying for it.

"3. Make the cattle raiser stand behind his/her product and weed out the undersireables."

We dock bad or undesirable calves every time they run through the ring and still they keep coming. Down here MOST of the males calves still come through the barn with nuts. The average producer has ~25 cows so most people DON'T make their living off of their brood cows. If there are ~1000 calves at the salebarn monday and if you figure 10 calves on avg per producer that means a 100 producers. Do you really think that an order buyer who needs to fill two potloads out of that sale has the time/ability to sort through all that data even IF it somehow was wirelessly downloading into his laptop????

"4. Make the commercial cattle raiser aware that not only are you being paid for lbs produced, but the quality of those pounds."

According to the Stockyard Report in the December 'Alabama Cattleman', in October Med & Lrg steers weighing an avg of 326 lbs brought an avg of $400.65, 363 lbs - $412.22, 425 lbs - $442.34, 454 lbs - $445.10, 520 lbs - $476.06, 570 lbs - $496.64, 628 lbs - $529.15, 674 - $559.29, and 730 - $598.02. Those who got those heavier weights typically did their job right, kept their cows milking and in good condition, probably kept minerals out, probably supplemented their cows in winter, probably preconditioned and fence line weaned their calves, probably dewormed and vaccinated his calves, etc and they only got ~$197 ($49 cents a pound) for their effort over the guy who unloaded a trailer load of lite calves who were weaned the morning of the sale and probably never got a shot or saw a mineral feeder. The market is sending the signal that it wants numbers not pounds and not necessarily quality.

"5. Being able to compare those who do a poor job to those who does a great job."

Again that works in theory, we are waiting for it out here in the real world.

"6. Being able to trace the management of any calf from birth, to stocker, to feed yard, to slaughter; for the consumer."

Traceback WILL allow us to track down any disease outbreak to the source yes. PROBABLY the strongest argument for mandatory EID; but it likely won't be implemented in the next ten years though and if it is how many cattle herds in this country will just disappear???

"7. Increased awareness of how health, nutrtion, reproduction, and genetics play important roles in producing an animal with a quality carcass."

I got real doubts as to how many typical part time commercial cow producers can even interpret the data, if they get the data, even if the data shows a correlation between quality grade and feeder calf price.

"8. Track use of hormones and poor injection site users in beef cattle operations across the US. (which are many)"

I don't see how we can track hormones. Unless you take the time to cut the implant out of the ear I don't see how anybody is going to identify which carcass was implanted and which wasn't given that the hormones are the same in both. If we started punishing people back on the farm for injection site blemishes, I think we only discourage them from vaccinating and deworming and if the calf has been at a backgrounder, then a feedlot, I would argue that any blemishes came on their end.

"9. Track those producers that incorporate Best Management Practices (BMP) into their operations using programs like BQA."

See number 8.

"10. Paid premiums for operators using BMP's and EID."

We will cheer them when we see them (if we see them).

"11. Consumer approval"

I have seen polls where 20-30% of the consumers don't know what animal they are eating when they order a burger or a steak. I am not convinced that they even understand what mandatory EID is, much less are willing to (knowingly) pay 10 cents a pound for it.

"12. Cattle industry in the US would have only "20 breeds or even 5" in production instead of 120"

I don't necessarily see decreasing genetic diversity as a good thing; but if I think that Black Baldies bring more at the salebarn why wouldn't I just input "Angus/Hereford cross" into the EID tags of my white faced Simmental x black Salers calves???

I am not telling somebody to not EID their calves or not to use best management practices. I certainly would like to see more of both; but I don't think it is quite the panacea that you seem to be promising here.
 

novatech

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4CTophand":wy0u11q8 said:
Again, you miss the point--- marketing a product happens AFTER you have produced it. EID would force all cattle raisers to stand behind what they raise, which would force them to invest in some carcass quality type cattle and the rest of the misinformed like you would be working for those who do it right [/b]

Thanks for your reply as it is always interesting what others say.
Actually I think you are missing the point. This is a free society not one in which we are forced. You are not forced to take high quality cattle to the sale barn. You can choose to learn how to market your high quality product and you can choose to direct mark and get a premium. If you have a quality product the buyer will buy more. If do not want to bother then the choice is yours. All the tracer will do is cause more paper work and buracracy. Now I could see where the IRS or some other governmental agency could benefit.
If a packer knows that a producer is producing a higher quality beef product do you think the packer is going to run out and start paying more when they have been buying them cheap for years. It is up to the producer to produce a high quality product and market it. There are many doing this today without the use of electronic markers. I can see where it would give the packer and some feed lots a big advantage.
 

Red Bull Breeder

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For the market to work properly you have to have all grades of beef. Most small producers are never going to retain ownership they simple cannot put the numbers together to make it work for them.Why is it that from time to time Select is worth more than Choice?? Supply and Demand. To much Choice and the market for it drops. If all beef graded Choice or Prime the packers not have to pay any premiums at all.
 
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4CTophand

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Brandonm22":30dy4lrr said:
Pro

"1. Being able to trace both good and bad product back to the owner/producer."

True but if both good and bad producers are comingling their trailer loads at the sale barn, I don't see how you use the information.
Pssst electronic ID
"2. Make the commercial cattle raiser aware of what he/she is raising and to improve carcass traits"

As Dun has already stated, it is very difficult to get that data back and unless you are a seedstock producer or are trying to enroll your calves into some sort of premium program I don't see where the data is worth paying for it.
It is not that dificult to get data from a EID calf -- that is the whole point

"3. Make the cattle raiser stand behind his/her product and weed out the undersireables."

We dock bad or undesirable calves every time they run through the ring and still they keep coming. Down here MOST of the males calves still come through the barn with nuts. The average producer has ~25 cows so most people DON'T make their living off of their brood cows. If there are ~1000 calves at the salebarn monday and if you figure 10 calves on avg per producer that means a 100 producers. Do you really think that an order buyer who needs to fill two potloads out of that sale has the time/ability to sort through all that data even IF it somehow was wirelessly downloading into his laptop???? How does this line of reasoning have anything to do with the idea of cattle raisers standing behind their product?

"4. Make the commercial cattle raiser aware that not only are you being paid for lbs produced, but the quality of those pounds."

According to the Stockyard Report in the December 'Alabama Cattleman', in October Med & Lrg steers weighing an avg of 326 lbs brought an avg of $400.65, 363 lbs - $412.22, 425 lbs - $442.34, 454 lbs - $445.10, 520 lbs - $476.06, 570 lbs - $496.64, 628 lbs - $529.15, 674 - $559.29, and 730 - $598.02. Those who got those heavier weights typically did their job right, kept their cows milking and in good condition, probably kept minerals out, probably supplemented their cows in winter, probably preconditioned and fence line weaned their calves, probably dewormed and vaccinated his calves, etc and they only got ~$197 ($49 cents a pound) for their effort over the guy who unloaded a trailer load of lite calves who were weaned the morning of the sale and probably never got a shot or saw a mineral feeder. The market is sending the signal that it wants numbers not pounds and not necessarily quality. The Market doesnt want quality>? What planet are you on?

"5. Being able to compare those who do a poor job to those who does a great job."

Again that works in theory, we are waiting for it out here in the real world. Psst EID.

"6. Being able to trace the management of any calf from birth, to stocker, to feed yard, to slaughter; for the consumer."

Traceback WILL allow us to track down any disease outbreak to the source yes. PROBABLY the strongest argument for mandatory EID; but it likely won't be implemented in the next ten years though and if it is how many cattle herds in this country will just disappear???
Again off topic--- traceable information will help bring consumers a positive outlook on Beef and Beef producers.

"7. Increased awareness of how health, nutrtion, reproduction, and genetics play important roles in producing an animal with a quality carcass."

I got real doubts as to how many typical part time commercial cow producers can even interpret the data, if they get the data, even if the data shows a correlation between quality grade and feeder calf price. Yes I agree there are a lot of ignorant part-timers out there-- when you find a correlation between QG and calf price you will also find a correlation between Frogs and Pork. Off Topic --please keep it real.

"8. Track use of hormones and poor injection site users in beef cattle operations across the US. (which are many)"

I don't see how we can track hormones. Unless you take the time to cut the implant out of the ear I don't see how anybody is going to identify which carcass was implanted and which wasn't given that the hormones are the same in both. If we started punishing people back on the farm for injection site blemishes, I think we only discourage them from vaccinating and deworming and if the calf has been at a backgrounder, then a feedlot, I would argue that any blemishes came on their end. have you ever graded any carcasses or even seen a carcass hanging on the rail?

"9. Track those producers that incorporate Best Management Practices (BMP) into their operations using programs like BQA."

See number 8. See my Cons #1,2.4,5and 7

"10. Paid premiums for operators using BMP's and EID."

We will cheer them when we see them (if we see them). yes you will be cheering from the sidelines I am quite sure
I am not convinced you do either or BMP's for that matter
"11. Consumer approval"

I have seen polls where 20-30% of the consumers don't know what animal they are eating when they order a burger or a steak.Look into COOL I am not convinced that they even understand what mandatory EID is, am not convinced you do either or BMP's for that mattermuch less are willing to (knowingly) pay 10 cents a pound for it. Again off topic and only hearsay with nothing to substantiate your info with Do you understand what consumer approval does for you or not?

"12. Cattle industry in the US would have only "20 breeds or even 5" in production instead of 120"

I don't necessarily see decreasing genetic diversity as a good thing; but if I think that Black Baldies bring more at the salebarn why wouldn't I just input "Angus/Hereford cross" into the EID tags of my white faced Simmental x black Salers calves??? You could do that and refer to my Con #5 and do you realy think cattle buyers are that stupid? You are definately dreaming> lol

I am not telling somebody to not EID their calves or not to use best management practices. I certainly would like to see more of both; but I don't think it is quite the panacea that you seem to be promising here.
Promises? I just listed the Pro's and Con's of EID as I see them . What I tried to do is make ppl think about not only raising lbs --but quality pounds because mandatory EID is coming and you might as well get on board now and start raising the kind of cattle that pay -- that way it wont be such a hard hit on you when you are made to do it or quit -- but some ppl need to quit --so it is a good thing
 
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4CTophand

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KMacGinley":3vixr4i9 said:
You are very rude. Are you TTCLM come around again? If not, you might as well be. Use some manners Please. :roll:
Since when is saying what you honestly think being rude --there is nothing rude in my comments
 

cfpinz

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KMacGinley":3pc76mtd said:
You are very rude. Are you TTCLM come around again? If not, you might as well be. Use some manners Please. :roll:

I'll have to agree. But this post is rather amusing. Notice the cut-and-paste opening topic using research from other sources? Then note the lack of knowledge and facts in response to brandon's comments. It's pretty clear who knows what they're talking about, and who can cut-and-paste from google.
 

Brandonm22

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4CTophand":rsrzmkvg said:
have you ever graded any carcasses or even seen a carcass hanging on the rail?

Yes to both. I used to be pretty good at predicting yield grade on finished steers. Quality grade though is pretty much a crap shoot unless they are black and sloppy fat. WHAT the heck does that have to do with what we get paid for calves in a real world stockyard hundreds of miles away from the feedlots and six to twelves months away from slaughter. Have you ever actually worked at or been to a REAL stockyard???? IF you had you would see that on the average day Farmer Brown brings 4 600 lb steers, two 500 lb heifers, a 380 lb bull, and a cull cow on his 22' gooseneck trailer before he goes to work. The 4 big steers go in a pen with 20 to 100 other big steers. The cull cow goes with the cull cows. The little bull goes in a pen with 20 to 100 3 wt calves (all breeds, genders, health statuses), and the 500 lb heifer probably goes into a pen with 5 and 6 wt heifers. Most of the time, they let one to five calves in at a time. He won't be in the ring for more than ten seconds. Don't tell me that the four or five order buyers will be looking up his EID number on their laptops while they are bidding. It is absolutely absurd to even suggest that. Each of them has so many orders: 6 wt Lrg 1 black steers, 4 wt mixed breed heifers, 11 wt kill cows, 5 wt 2 red bulls/steers, 6 wt CharX heifers, etc. They fill their orders and most of them see 3000-5000 hd a week. They don't pay extra at the sale because Farmer Brown calves grade better than your avg. 4 wt bull calves. EID won't change much for most commercial producers. Somebody who is big enough to put together 2 or 3 pot belly loads year in and year will be able to leverage his calve's performance into a better price; but that is already the case.
 

rockridgecattle

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Hi, I'm from Canada and we use the manditory RFID tag, so here is a Canadian prospective The tags have been in place for several years now. I'm thinking a year or two before 2003, correct me if i am wrong
1. rare does a cattle producer use the reader. We borrowed the vets whie she preg tested the cows...why you ask, so we were able to download the tag numbers for the age verifying. We shipped out alot of cows. Age verified cows paid premium. Other than that, only the sale barns and the vets use the readers. And maybe some feedlots. The vet uses it for the import/export data at the sale barn, and the sale barn reads every tag that goes throught the ring.
2. we put the tag in when we tag the calves at birth. In about 5 years we have replaced 2 - 4 before the calf sale. Out of 400 animals over that period, not bad.

do we see a premium...only if they are age verified. To age verify, we log on to the national Id web site with a user name and password. Then we enter the tag # and birth date. After that we print birht records and submit them to the sale barn.
i should mention, when we buy the tags from the supply store, the tags are immediately registered in the purchaserd name, then when i log in, i can not use any tag #'s that are not registered to me.
Yes the data would be nice, yes the tags and readers offer some benifit to the producer and feedlot operator, but the reality is that it is not cost effective for the producer, feedlot operator, and consumer.
Those that use it are the sale barn, any vet who verifies the animals meet export rules, and the packers. Does it benifit them?
Well the sale barn upped the commision due to the expense, the vet makes $ following the rules, and the packers pass the cost onto the consumer, feedlot operator, and producer. And somehow I end up with less in my pocket.
Oh yeah, we follow good management practices, vaccinate calve and cows, nut the bulls, tag, record all drugs used and site injections.
 

novatech

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rockridgecattle":36k4ccht said:
Hi, I'm from Canada and we use the manditory RFID tag, so here is a Canadian prospective The tags have been in place for several years now. I'm thinking a year or two before 2003, correct me if i am wrong
1. rare does a cattle producer use the reader. We borrowed the vets whie she preg tested the cows...why you ask, so we were able to download the tag numbers for the age verifying. We shipped out alot of cows. Age verified cows paid premium. Other than that, only the sale barns and the vets use the readers. And maybe some feedlots. The vet uses it for the import/export data at the sale barn, and the sale barn reads every tag that goes throught the ring.
2. we put the tag in when we tag the calves at birth. In about 5 years we have replaced 2 - 4 before the calf sale. Out of 400 animals over that period, not bad.

do we see a premium...only if they are age verified. To age verify, we log on to the national Id web site with a user name and password. Then we enter the tag # and birth date. After that we print birht records and submit them to the sale barn.
i should mention, when we buy the tags from the supply store, the tags are immediately registered in the purchaserd name, then when i log in, i can not use any tag #'s that are not registered to me.
Yes the data would be nice, yes the tags and readers offer some benifit to the producer and feedlot operator, but the reality is that it is not cost effective for the producer, feedlot operator, and consumer.
Those that use it are the sale barn, any vet who verifies the animals meet export rules, and the packers. Does it benifit them?
Well the sale barn upped the commision due to the expense, the vet makes $ following the rules, and the packers pass the cost onto the consumer, feedlot operator, and producer. And somehow I end up with less in my pocket.
Oh yeah, we follow good management practices, vaccinate calve and cows, nut the bulls, tag, record all drugs used and site injections.
Thanks for posting reality. :clap:
 

grannysoo

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4CTophand":3eohpl4q said:
KMacGinley":3eohpl4q said:
You are very rude. Are you TTCLM come around again? If not, you might as well be. Use some manners Please. :roll:
Since when is saying what you honestly think being rude --there is nothing rude in my comments

Perhaps in this topic you haven't been rude - yet. However - you have already set the example on how you conduct yourself in other posts, and that is very rude, crude, and offensive. Therefore, you probably have 90% of the board that really doesn't give a rats-rear-end on what you think about most any subject due to your know it all behavior and attitude.

The topic is quite interesting, but not when you want to talk about it.....
 
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4CTophand

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[qNo cut and paste on the opening topic --I believe the cut and paste was from Brandon....
uote="cfpinz"]
KMacGinley":nyisom2m said:
You are very rude. Are you TTCLM come around again? If not, you might as well be. Use some manners Please. :roll:

I'll have to agree. But this post is rather amusing. Notice the cut-and-paste opening topic using research from other sources? Then note the lack of knowledge and facts in response to brandon's comments. It's pretty clear who knows what they're talking about, and who can cut-and-paste from google.[/quote]
 
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4CTophand

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novatech":3jve84wx said:
rockridgecattle":3jve84wx said:
Hi, I'm from Canada and we use the manditory RFID tag, so here is a Canadian prospective The tags have been in place for several years now. I'm thinking a year or two before 2003, correct me if i am wrong
1. rare does a cattle producer use the reader. We borrowed the vets whie she preg tested the cows...why you ask, so we were able to download the tag numbers for the age verifying. We shipped out alot of cows. Age verified cows paid premium. Other than that, only the sale barns and the vets use the readers. And maybe some feedlots. The vet uses it for the import/export data at the sale barn, and the sale barn reads every tag that goes throught the ring.
2. we put the tag in when we tag the calves at birth. In about 5 years we have replaced 2 - 4 before the calf sale. Out of 400 animals over that period, not bad.

do we see a premium...only if they are age verified. To age verify, we log on to the national Id web site with a user name and password. Then we enter the tag # and birth date. After that we print birht records and submit them to the sale barn.
i should mention, when we buy the tags from the supply store, the tags are immediately registered in the purchaserd name, then when i log in, i can not use any tag #'s that are not registered to me.
Yes the data would be nice, yes the tags and readers offer some benifit to the producer and feedlot operator, but the reality is that it is not cost effective for the producer, feedlot operator, and consumer.
Those that use it are the sale barn, any vet who verifies the animals meet export rules, and the packers. Does it benifit them?
Well the sale barn upped the commision due to the expense, the vet makes $ following the rules, and the packers pass the cost onto the consumer, feedlot operator, and producer. And somehow I end up with less in my pocket.
Oh yeah, we follow good management practices, vaccinate calve and cows, nut the bulls, tag, record all drugs used and site injections.
Thanks for you post --most americans aren't interested in Premiums at least the ones on this board....
 

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