Proper shelter --- For beginners

[sim.-ang.king]

Taurus

Not all cattle have same requirements/needs as you know that.

No I don't know that. The only think all cattle need is food, water and shelter. Nothing else, until we fence them in and then they may need salt/mineral blocks.
Wrong! If a cow has a calf on her side the requirements are 2x that of a cow without a calf, and you add in a cold wet winter, and it's even more
Re:

Environment plays big role in this.

I totally disagree, unless you are talking about an extreme environment condition like a cliff for pasture or salt water for water.
How about mud? You still still failed to give a answer about mud, and instead you said something stupid about PETA

I think that you are trying to tell us that we should doing a year-around breeding instead of a seasonal breeding.

Wrong! I am just putting both options out there and responding to those who are trying to convince others that seasonal breeding is the only way.
Not on your other thread. You were trying to tell that someone up north should do it because it worked down in dry land TN.
Re

Well we told you why we cannot doing a year-around breeding few times.

And I have disproved every one of them so the option is still open for people to make up their own mind.
Still haven't disproved mud, our mud gets so deep that it will sallow up a week old calf, and don't say build a barn because that would make it even less profitable having to feed a cow till her calf was a month old. In barns disease runs rampant, and your better off waiting till dry weather for them to calve in.
Re:

I would be afraid for the beginners that taking your advice......judging from your posts, you have no idea what you are talking about!

DEBATE ISSUES, NOT PEOPLE!!
In the arena of ideas, if you make it/take it personal, you automatically lose the debate!!
In the area of debate, if you don't have experience in the field then you better be good at jackazzin'
SL

:tiphat:

 

[Sir Loin]

Chippie,
Re:

There is nothing wrong if seasonal breeding

I didn't say there was!
All I said was, there are two breeding options and you may want to consider both before you make your decision on your breeding program and if you are presently using a seasonal program you may want to consider a year-round program.
Nothing more, nothing less.

Re:

You are the one arguing that having a year 'round breeding program is best.

I never said which one was best! I pointed the pros and cons of both and responded to those who posted their views of the pros and cons of both.

Re

You want everyone to believe the same as you and do what you do.

Do you really think people are so stupid that they would make a decision of this magnitude based on what they read on the internet?
I don't!
Re:

People explain what works best for them and you have to tell them that they are wrong.

Then they aren't beginners are they?
Did you not read the tile of this thread?

SL

 

[Karin]

Karin

Re:

IMO, shelter's less of a concern than what you're feeding them.

That all depends on your location/climatic conditions and management.
In my area cattle are more likely to die of pneumonia then they are of starvation with out any management.

Re:

Of course. ------------Bla bla bla --bla bla {/quote]
Would you like a little music to do that dance to? You didn't give me a direct answer to a direct question.

OK, all kidding aside.
The original question was:

Can you use year-round breeding north of the border.
My answer was yes, but you must provide adequate shelter for that area, just the same as I do in my area.
There were those who said it couldn't be done because of the adverse weather.
And I said, yes you can, the same way I do. Block the wind and if you wish give them bedding to lay on. And made several other suggestions to improve on the natural shelter. Of course you're simply talking about the fact of raising these animals the conventional way: graze pasture on summer, keep them in the drylot feeding hay in the winter. We all know that YRB will work with that method...but I got the gist from lack of response that it won't work with the less conventional means of keeping cows out on pasture or in the fields for the majority of the winter doing winter grazing.
Feed was not addressed at that time, things just went down hill from there.

I also stated that cattle are hardy animals and just like any wild animal they will and can survive, but because we fence them in, we may have to provide additional shelter, such as wind breaks, if no natural shelter is available.

This is where it starts getting nit-picky. The ground that people raise cattle on isn't always flat, there's ridges and hills that they make use of during inclement weather conditions. So I think the concerns about the use of shelter is getting to be more of a gray area on this thread and is why it's not worth discussing anymore. So let's move on to the feed portion...

Now unless you can show me differently, weather/climatic condition is no excuse to not use year-round breeding if you wish. It has already been shown to you SL, you just need to go back and re-read the posts...read between the lines, if you will.
Now that takes care of 2 of the necessities of cattle. ( water and shelter! }

Now lets do feed, defined as pasture, hay and or grain products.

You are correct, feed is important and cattle do need an adequate supply of feed, but they do NOT need different feeds through out their calf producing cycle.

Maybe not, but I'm not so much concerned about the "what" of the feed but rather the "what's in it" part of the feed....i.e., nutritional component. Rounding back to the topic of YRB, in winter you will have various cows with different nutritional demands from the other. This is what makes it hard to determine the fact that different feeds are not really required throughout their reproductive cycle...without separating them into groups. If you're winter grazing or what to utilize winter grazing, this breeding program makes it impossible for a good 365-day grazing operation to be successful without confining some or most of your cows to the drylot. No, you can feed your cows the same thing, it's just that how well they do on it based on their reproductive requirements if you're not using a controlled breeding program is the biggest concern here.

If a cow is fed and kept in proper body condition when her nutritional needs rise she can and will draw from her stored fat.
That is the primary reason fat is stored.

OK. Your counter point?

A cow will draw on stored fat when she's fed lower quality feed, but will draw on more of it when she's got a calf to feed. Can't expect a cow to do well with a calf at side when the feed quality that she needs isn't there with the current feed (be it grass and hay, and maybe a little grain) being fed. And you can't expect the same feed source to help her put back that weight that she lost without adding an additional and better feed source to the mix, like a protein supplement of some form. So saying that a cow doesn't need different feed sources throughout the calving cycle isn't exactly true.

 

[Sir Loin]

Karin

Great post---Thanks
And believe me-we are not that far apart.
Just a few more little things to better help me understand.

Re:
[quote:] Of course you're simply talking about the fact of raising these animals the conventional way: graze pasture on summer, keep them in the dry lot feeding hay in the winter. [/quote]
What are you calling a dry lot?
In YRB you leave the cattle in the winter grazing pasture the same as you would with SB ( I think ), as long as they have adequate shelter.
I don't see any difference between the two.

Re:

So I think the concerns about the use of shelter is getting to be more of a gray area on this thread and is why it's not worth discussing anymore.

I agree. But I tend to do all I can ( baby my cows ) to keep the mortality rate down.
Others here had brought up calves freezing to death, so I was just passing on what I do to help keep my mortality rate down. ( supplying bedding and additional wind brakes )

Re:

It has already been shown to you SL, you just need to go back and re-read the posts...read between the lines, if you will.

I believe I have already address all the weather related issues brought up.
If I missed one, please feel free to bring it up again.

Re:

Maybe not, but I'm not so much concerned about the "what" of the feed but rather the "what's in it" part of the feed....i.e., nutritional component.

I agree!

Re:

Rounding back to the topic of YRB, in winter you will have various cows with different nutritional demands from the other.

Agreed!

Re:

This is what makes it hard to determine the fact that different feeds are not really required throughout their reproductive cycle...without separating them into groups.

??? They do not need different feeds in different stages "throughout their reproductive cycle" and with or without calf by their side.

If you provide their nutritional needs
When your pastures are at their best and your cows are between a BCS of 5 (cow about to calve and calf just weaned ) and a cow open ready to breed with a BCS of 8, through out their yearly cycle their BCS will fluctuate between 5 % 8.providing you meet their nutritional needs. This allows some to lose fat and some to gain fat, while at the same time providing both the fetus's and the calf by her side nutritional needs.

This way you don't need to adjust the feed given, you simple let the cow draw on her reserve and let her restore her reserve on the same feed year round.

I think what you are saying is you want to keep your cows at a BCS of 8 year round and adjust your feed accordingly to maintain it, instead of letting the cows BCS change. Corrct?
SL

 

[Sir Loin]

Chippie,
Calm down girl.
If you are going to quote me, please don't take it out of context and then run with it!
I said:

I totally disagree with that!
Cattle are cattle and have the same needs/requirements no matter where in the world.
There is no variable that management can not control except the weather, and even then he can see to the cattle's needs/requirements.
To think otherwise is only an excuse for doing things the way you are presently doing them and an excuse for not considering a change.

Now why is that "ridiculous and degrading "?
If you do the same thing for 10 years running, you only have one years experience ten time over.
What's "degrading" about that?

SL

 

[James T]

It must be a full moon out.

 

[Karin]

Karin

Great post---Thanks
And believe me-we are not that far apart.
Just a few more little things to better help me understand.

Re:

Of course you're simply talking about the fact of raising these animals the conventional way: graze pasture on summer, keep them in the dry lot feeding hay in the winter.

What are you calling a dry lot?

Drylot referring to something equivalent to a feedlot or sacrifice area where cattle are taken off pasture and kept in there where you feed them hay or silage for a period of time until they're ready to head out to pasture again.

In YRB you leave the cattle in the winter grazing pasture the same as you would with SB ( I think ), as long as they have adequate shelter.
I don't see any difference between the two.

There's a big difference concerning location. What one area can do another area cannot, no matter if adequate shelter is made available or not. You can easily do year-round grazing and YRB down south if you can manage your pastures so that grass is growing for most of the year, especially south where little to no snow is seen. Up here, big difference: plenty of snow, grazing growing grass for only 5 to 6 months out of the year, the rest is feeding or trying to get cows on swaths or bales out on the fields to graze them. With that period of time, feed quality is and can be too low to be suitable for lactating cows (cows w/ calves) without a bit of supplementation and worrying about how to care for those young calves without providing shelter and additional bedding. Up here, I'd rather have cows with a defined calving season around May-ish and on pasture at the same time than having to deal with calving cows in snow and cold. That's why I had to question the YRB with the YRG up this far north.

Re:

So I think the concerns about the use of shelter is getting to be more of a gray area on this thread and is why it's not worth discussing anymore.

I agree. But I tend to do all I can ( baby my cows ) to keep the mortality rate down.
Others here had brought up calves freezing to death, so I was just passing on what I do to help keep my mortality rate down. ( supplying bedding and additional wind brakes )

Re:

It has already been shown to you SL, you just need to go back and re-read the posts...read between the lines, if you will.

I believe I have already address all the weather related issues brought up.
If I missed one, please feel free to bring it up again.

Done, see above.

Re:

Maybe not, but I'm not so much concerned about the "what" of the feed but rather the "what's in it" part of the feed....i.e., nutritional component.

I agree!

Re:

Rounding back to the topic of YRB, in winter you will have various cows with different nutritional demands from the other.

Agreed!

Re:

This is what makes it hard to determine the fact that different feeds are not really required throughout their reproductive cycle...without separating them into groups.

??? They do not need different feeds in different stages "throughout their reproductive cycle" and with or without calf by their side.

If you provide their nutritional needs
When your pastures are at their best and your cows are between a BCS of 5 (cow about to calve and calf just weaned ) and a cow open ready to breed with a BCS of 8, through out their yearly cycle their BCS will fluctuate between 5 % 8.providing you meet their nutritional needs. This allows some to lose fat and some to gain fat, while at the same time providing both the fetus's and the calf by her side nutritional needs.

This way you don't need to adjust the feed given, you simple let the cow draw on her reserve and let her restore her reserve on the same feed year round.

I think what you are saying is you want to keep your cows at a BCS of 8 year round and adjust your feed accordingly to maintain it, instead of letting the cows BCS change. Corrct?
SL

No. I was saying that you can't expect the same feed source being fed is always going to meet a cow's nutritional needs all the time. Yes you can allow a cow to lose weight, but not so much that it is detrimental to the cow's health and/or the calf's welfare. Of course, we've seen some crappy thin-looking cows raise some great-looking calves...

BCS of 8 is a little too fat for a cow anyway--BCS of 5 or 6 is ideal for a cow regardless what nutritional plane she's in.

 

[Sir Loin]

Karin,
Re:

Drylot referring to something equivalent to a feedlot or sacrifice area where cattle are taken off pasture and kept in there where you feed them hay or silage for a period of time until they're ready to head out to pasture again.

What is the purpose of that? I know to feed them but why don't you just feed them in the pasture where they are?
That's what I do.
How big is the dry lot. I am thinking corral size where you catch them, bunch them up to work them.

Re:

There's a big difference concerning location. What one area can do another area cannot,

And exactly what is that, that one can do that the other can not?
I see no logic there. If it is good for part of the year and not another and you do supplemental feeding ( hay ) just like we do in the south for drought and winter. I don't see how snow has anything to do with it.
And if you do supplemental feeding (hay or silage ) you can do that anywhere. Right?

Re:

No. I was saying that you can't expect the same feed source being fed is always going to meet a cow's nutritional needs all the time.

Then we will have to simply agree to disagree on that one.

Re:

Yes you can allow a cow to lose weight, but not so much that it is detrimental to the cow's health and/or the calf's welfare.

Well that's a management decision (problem) if that happens. That can happen regardless of the breeding program.

Re:

BCS of 8 is a little too fat for a cow anyway--BCS of 5 or 6 is ideal for a cow.

OK, as we all have different visions of exactly what those numbers mean and I was talking hypothetically. I don't have a problem with your numbers, it's the range of the two numbers that we need to worry about.

Re:

regardless what nutritional plane she's in.

???? I would say: regardless what stage of production she's in, because they all are in the same nutritional plane when using YRB.
SL

 

[sim.-ang.king]

How could they all be on the same nutritional plane when one has a calf on it's side, and the other is still 2 months from calving with YRB?

 

[Taurus]

What bothers me is that how could an old man that have been in and out of the cattle business few times but know NOTHING about the management?

 

[Sir Loin]

Re:

How could they all be on the same nutritional plane when one has a calf on it's side, and the other is still 2 months from calving with YRB?

What do you mean by "nutritional plane "? Is that the same as " nutritional needs"?
Maybe that is where the confusion is coming from.
SL

 

[ga.prime]

What happened to your BCS thread, Sirloin?

 

[Karin]

SL, I live in Alberta, you live in TN. It's pretty darn hard to keep cattle on pasture all year round when I get 3 to 4 feet of snow every year, unless there's a method of winter grazing such as swath or bale grazing. You really are showing your lack of knowledge and your ignorance of how things are done far north of the 49th parallel.

My definition of supplemental feed is not hay, but grain and/or a protein feed supplement. Hay and silage is a FEED source, not a "supplement." You like to twist things around don't you?

I am talking about the same BCS range as you: the "American" or "beef" scale of 1 to 9, 9 being obese (or very fat) and 1 being emaciated (very thin.) The Canadian or "dairy" scale is from BCS of 1 to 5. SL I think you're just twisting things around in your head that make things more complicated than they really are. The numbers should mean the same regardless of who's talking here.

because they all are in the same nutritional plane when using YRB.

:bs: Now that's the most ridiculous statement I've ever seen on here, and exactly what I've been trying to telling you is not true at all.

And Yes, "nutritional plane" mean the same thing as "nutritional needs" or "level of production" or "reproductive needs" or whatever.

Taurus, I completely agree!

 

[regolith]

mobilising fat is much less efficient as a means of providing energy, than converting to glucose directly from complex carbohydrate fed.
Thus, cattlemen who are over-reliant on natural means of balancing feed requirements and intake such as fat mobilisation and compensatory growth, are losing money.

I trust that a cattleman of your calibre SL understands every phrase above as well as 'nutritional plane', one of the most basic concepts of managing livestock.

 

[sim.-ang.king]

Re:

How could they all be on the same nutritional plane when one has a calf on it's side, and the other is still 2 months from calving with YRB?

What do you mean by "nutritional plane "? Is that the same as " nutritional needs"?
Maybe that is where the confusion is coming from.
SL

Why use a word you don't even know what it means then? Kind of like the your BCS stats.

 

[Sir Loin]

Sorry people but rain or shine, starting tomorrow I have fence that needs built.
So just keep on kicking this around and I'm sure you will get it sooner or later.

Gone fencen :tiphat:
SL

 

[Calman]

What ya need fence for just build a bigger barn.

Cal