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@TwoByrdsMG - why are you breeding to Charolais? You have a great herd of MG.
In the Simmental world, all AI and donor cows HAVE to be tested and it is reported on all animals on the web site for anyone to see. How can any stud sell semen on an untested bull?? That actually amazes me. I sure would steer clear of them. Great way to ruin a breed - hide and ignore a problem.
 
I consider myself commercial, but over the years my herd has evolved to where all of my cows are now registered Angus. I have spent the last almost 30 years putting together what I consider to be a really good herd of cattle. They work well in this environment and I'd be hard pressed to find better cattle at any of the big name ranches. Most are the direct descendants of carefully chosen AI bulls. Like wbvs58, I have a good deal of difficulty picking out my replacement heifers each year. I always end up selling heifers that I would love to keep. But I am keeping my herd size stable, so I can only keep a few each year. The rest I sell by the pound. When someone asks if they can pick out and buy a replacement heifer from me, I still sell them by the pound at only a slight markup over what my regular buyer pays for the rest of my calves. It makes me happy to know those good heifers will go on to improve another herd. I will register at no charge if they want the papers, since it costs very little when I own the bull.

Because I don't make much more selling a replacement quality heifer, than I make selling one as a stocker calf, there is no incentive to sell a carrier heifer to anyone that plans on breeding her. I will not sell a carrier heifer even to another commercial buyer. There is no guarantee they will use that information in the way I do. They may still use an untested bull and get an affected calf, or later sell the cow or her offspring to an unsuspecting buyer. I don't want to be responsible for any future carriers or the heartbreak of dead calves. When I sell a carrier, she only goes to my regular trusted buyer, and all of his stocker calves eventually go to a feedlot.
 
Jeanne - Simme Valley said:
@TwoByrdsMG - why are you breeding to Charolais? You have a great herd of MG.
In the Simmental world, all AI and donor cows HAVE to be tested and it is reported on all animals on the web site for anyone to see. How can any stud sell semen on an untested bull?? That actually amazes me. I sure would steer clear of them. Great way to ruin a breed - hide and ignore a problem.
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We are trying to increase the income and marketability of the herd as a whole. We like the direction of our MGs and will stick with them as our main herd because they fit exactly what we desire in our herd. However, if we sell them we get slaughtered at the sale barn and sale price on good weaned heifers is $1200-1800 (registered) private treaty (or less :(). The market will not justify pricing them higher than that.

A good Charolais heifer will bring $2500-5k private treaty (or more). So we have incorporated some to test the market in our area, so far with good results. The cheapest way to get good genetics is to buy embryos so that's the route we went.

Also, we started out with Charolais x cattle and my husband really likes them. Gotta keep him happy too ;)
 
When I am buying, good Angus heifers will bring $2500 plus. When I am selling, the same or even better quality registered heifer with a similar pedigree and good EPDs might bring $1,000 or less. :( The big difference is marketing. If you are a good salesperson and have the right contacts, you can get the big prices. I am not a salesman and I don't have the right contacts. Heck, I end up with people trying to talk me into selling them for even less than what they would bring by the pound at a Sales-barn.

I keep a few bulls intact for my own use every 4-5 years. I normally band at birth, but it is impossible to know what will develop then, so I will keep all the AI sired bulls from my favorite cows intact. This usually means I end up with more than I need as yearlings. I band or cut anything that I don't like and then I may sell the extras as buyers choice. One guy who was trying to buy a good looking AI sired and DNA'd, yearling bull, told me I should sell it for less than the lowest price at the most recent auction sale, because "You won't have to pay a commission".

I'm terrible at marketing because I find it awkward trying to brag up anything of mine. I was brought up to believe it is rude, so selling is just not in my DNA. I will stick to commercial. I did have a rancher that ran a couple thousand cows approach me to buy bulls a few years ago after seeing my cows. We worked out a price that was just a little more than pound price. It didn't work out for me. I had to decide on a big enough group at birth and not band them. At weaning there were some that did not meet my standards, so there was the hassle of cutting a big calf rather then banding at birth. I pull my bulls in 60 days, but now I either needed to run cows with bull calves in separate pastures or worry about the young bulls breeding a heifer. After the first year I decided it just was not worth all the trouble. He asked about bulls the next spring and I told him I'd already put a band on everything. He has worked out a deal to sell his calves in a marketing program with 44 Farms now, and he needs to use their bulls, so it all worked out.
 
I don't raise a bull for anyone. My bulls are sold while nursing dam. If I have any unsold by weaning, we cut/castrate and my feedlot buyer takes them with the rest of the steers.
NY is not a big bull market. Normally sell 2-4 a year. Get $1850. The past 2 years I have had them sold before they were born. Already have order for 1 of next years calf crop.
I am not afraid to brag about my cattle. It's not bragging if you are telling the truth.
I don't know why there has been such an interest all of a sudden, but I'll take it.
 
Katpau said:
When I am buying, good Angus heifers will bring $2500 plus. When I am selling, the same or even better quality registered heifer with a similar pedigree and good EPDs might bring $1,000 or less. :( The big difference is marketing. If you are a good salesperson and have the right contacts, you can get the big prices. I am not a salesman and I don't have the right contacts. Heck, I end up with people trying to talk me into selling them for even less than what they would bring by the pound at a Sales-barn.

I keep a few bulls intact for my own use every 4-5 years. I normally band at birth, but it is impossible to know what will develop then, so I will keep all the AI sired bulls from my favorite cows intact. This usually means I end up with more than I need as yearlings. I band or cut anything that I don't like and then I may sell the extras as buyers choice. One guy who was trying to buy a good looking AI sired and DNA'd, yearling bull, told me I should sell it for less than the lowest price at the most recent auction sale, because "You won't have to pay a commission".

I'm terrible at marketing because I find it awkward trying to brag up anything of mine. I was brought up to believe it is rude, so selling is just not in my DNA. I will stick to commercial. I did have a rancher that ran a couple thousand cows approach me to buy bulls a few years ago after seeing my cows. We worked out a price that was just a little more than pound price. It didn't work out for me. I had to decide on a big enough group at birth and not band them. At weaning there were some that did not meet my standards, so there was the hassle of cutting a big calf rather then banding at birth. I pull my bulls in 60 days, but now I either needed to run cows with bull calves in separate pastures or worry about the young bulls breeding a heifer. After the first year I decided it just was not worth all the trouble. He asked about bulls the next spring and I told him I'd already put a band on everything. He has worked out a deal to sell his calves in a marketing program with 44 Farms now, and he needs to use their bulls, so it all worked out.
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I'm selling my yearling bulls from next Saturday, I have 10 of them to sell. I have decided that this is the last year that I will develop that number to sell for the exact reasons you mentioned. I am a bit exhausted at the moment having had to feed them over winter, cows have been calving and I'll be starting the breeding soon. All of this I can deal with quite well however the mental strain of marketing the bulls and answering the enquiries plus my hearing is very poor just tips me over the edge. I will transition to selling heifers ptic and just keep about 4 good bulls for people that come to me that know my cattle and are prepared to pay what I ask.

Ken
 
wbvs58 said:
I'm selling my yearling bulls from next Saturday, I have 10 of them to sell. I have decided that this is the last year that I will develop that number to sell for the exact reasons you mentioned. I am a bit exhausted at the moment having had to feed them over winter, cows have been calving and I'll be starting the breeding soon. All of this I can deal with quite well however the mental strain of marketing the bulls and answering the enquiries plus my hearing is very poor just tips me over the edge. I will transition to selling heifers ptic and just keep about 4 good bulls for people that come to me that know my cattle and are prepared to pay what I ask.

Ken
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Yup, there is a lot more to sales and marketing than just saying something is for sale, especially in this day and age. The best method is the route you're taking, people that understand your stock and pay what you ask without being a pain. Basically you've put the effort into cultivating that relationship. Now, if they have others that they tell about you and your stock, they're doing the marketing work for you, the best kind, word of mouth from a happy customer.
 
Katpau said:
I don't agree with TwoByrds statement about not line breeding because "Weird stuff like this pops up". It seems to me they are implying that inbreeding and line breeding can cause defects. That is untrue. Inbreeding is just a way of finding the problems caused by recessive genes that remain hidden until they finally are revealed when two carriers are mated. When two carriers are mated 25% of their calves will have the defect, half will be carriers and only 25% will be non carriers. Finding a defect carrier will happen much faster with inbreeding. You can find the good, the bad, and the inconsequential traits in a pedigree with some intensive inbreeding. It can give you a more uniform herd, which may be a good thing or a bad thing, depending on your choices. I actually do some purposeful line breeding of my best cows and it has been a positive thing. I have been fortunate to not discover any hidden defects and have gotten some really good cows from it.

There really is no a faster way to find problems, then to inbreed. Tests only reveal the defects we already know about and have developed a test for. Those defects were usually revealed when a bull has been immensely popular and was heavily used. Eventually his name appears in many pedigrees and the chances of two carriers being mated increases. Calves with defects begin to appear, the search for the source starts, and usually a common ancestor is found. At the same time a genetic test is developed and now perhaps thousands of potential carriers are identified and will need testing. This could likely have been prevented had those popular bulls been bred back to a large group of daughters, and any problems identified sooner. This would require at least 4-5 years data reported honestly by the bulls owners. I admit I have little confidence that someone with that large of an investment would be willing to sacrifice his own finances for the sake of the breed. I think that would be a very difficult decision for anyone. Easier to avoid inbreeding and not take the chance of finding something. The problems in the Charolais breed might mean it is so prevalent in the breed that even if you avoid breeding up close, there are no guarantees you are not breeding Carrier to Carrier. If I were TwoByrds I would test all of my cows and insist that any bulls I use has tested free of PA. I would only retain daughters that also test free. It will take time, but you will eventually have a herd that is free of PA and I would then promote it as such.
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EXACTLY, very well said. Someone paid big money for a bull so they could sell bull calves/semen/interest, etc
This is also why I have reservations about widespread AI use where you get SO MUCH influence from so few animals.. To think that one bull influences 25% or more of the US Char herd (because with 13% being carriers, there's another 13% that weren't) should make you think.. and 50 years later we're now having to deal with the problems from it
 
I truly believe that widespread use of AI is at the heart of a lot of the problems with cattle at present. It's took off as an industry with the industry, A handful of movers and shakers in the purebred world have found a way to corner the market and sell animals at grossly inflated prices. Other breeders have been duped into believing the hype that someone else's is better and now we breed cattle buy numbers on paper and give high priority to cattle from big name prefixes because they sell high dollar cattle. It's fun to talk big about this calf is by a $100,000 or more bull, but a year or two down the road it's obsolete.
The genetic base is shrinking and being replaced with cattle that may not be all that great in the long run.
 
First two questions from most potential buyers, maybe three - How big are they, are they AI sired and can the price come down.

When some come and look, the biggest one is always the best. When they say that they want heifer bulls, they always still want the biggest one. When they say that they are wanting a bull to fix their cow herd, they always want terminal traits.

I am from another planet. I look at it from outside the box. I have way more cows than bulls. Bulls are only good if they are from good cows. I want good cows in excess. I can feed bulls all winter on purchased feed but you will pay me for the feed and my labor. That means you will not be able to afford my bulls as the bargain you seek. And fatten and pushed bulls do not last as long. Many come because the high dollar and well known herd sourced bull they have or had went lame in the first 2 years.

So I do what I do: forage developed bulls on fescue. They suit me. They suit folks who seem my cows or know that I am shooting straight. Repeat buyers sometimes see their next bull when they pick it or or I drop it off. Life is too short for everybody to be a shyster.
 
Sounds similar to what happened in the black Hereford with maple syrup disease.

So don't line breed because "weird stuff shows up"
Continue to outcross and continue to spreed the potential recessive defects to a larger percentage of the population. Rather then to line breed ,identify recessive harmful traits and remove them from the population at large?
 
Rmc said:
Sounds similar to what happened in the black Hereford with maple syrup disease.

So don't line breed because "weird stuff shows up"
Continue to outcross and continue to spreed the potential recessive defects to a larger percentage of the population. Rather then to line breed ,identify recessive harmful traits and remove them from the population at large?
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Exactly.. Linebreeding only makes defects SHOW, it doesn't cause them.. I consider it a good thing, at least to an extent..I haven't had luck with matings that cause more than 50% influence from one animal, but a bunch of my best animals are from sibling/cousin matings (no influence over 50% from one animal)
 
Funky mutations can pop up anywhere- I get it. I just hope that this one gets addressed quickly.

I sent out my samples on Sept 1. Received at Neogen on Sept 6 (I had tracking on it) but the lab says they didn't get put into their system until Sept 16. Since I went through the association, Neogen won't give me any other updates or release testing data to me.

I'm livid about that. "3-4" weeks will screw me if I don't get results today. AICA only receives results from Neogen once a week (Wednesdays). My buyer will be here Saturday. They won't buy if results aren't in.
 
Half my females came back as carriers, lab "lost" one sample and one cow came back as the AI "Sire not qualified".

Confirmed that AI "Sire not qualified" cow sample is not sired by the "lost" cow sample's sire... so I have one carrier cow and have no idea who her sire is. Supposedly PB Registered Charolais cow. The entire reason I bought her through that online sale was because she was sired by the AI sire- he is known to produce very good daughters. Talked with the breeder who hasn't gotten back to me about his theory but he had two walking sires that I know about.

Fence Jumper #1 - Her dam's sire (DNA not tested)
Fence Jumper #2 - DNA not tested

I should feel lucky- none of the ones I have now will be affected with PA.
 
Jeanne - Simme Valley said:
@TwoByrdsMG - why are you breeding to Charolais? You have a great herd of MG.
In the Simmental world, all AI and donor cows HAVE to be tested and it is reported on all animals on the web site for anyone to see. How can any stud sell semen on an untested bull?? That actually amazes me. I sure would steer clear of them. Great way to ruin a breed - hide and ignore a problem.
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@Jeanne - Simme Valley this is the Charolais ET heifer (of course she's a carrier too) that my daughter is going to show this weekend. She will look fantastic after our fitter finishes her hair cut. Got a full sibling due 01/20/23. Two out of three of these embryos stuck.

1665757037718.png
 
This is strickly MY thoughts/opinion and may be obsolete in modern breeding programs:
The breed is known for growth. That's IT. Not good milkers. Bulls have small SC (which I would have to think that means low fertility in females). Used to be poor temperament, but has improved. They do have good bone. Poor marbling breed.
They have your white/light color.
I understand you need to have a more marketable product. Really too bad you MG's are hurting you in the sale barn. You do have some great MG's. Doesn't the Charolais color hurt you in the sale ring? or do buyer's like the smokies?
 

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