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Caustic Burno

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Herefordcross":2hc3cxij said:
Ask me about profit at the end of this year and I'll give you an exact per head figure.

I hope you make a bundle.
Last year I was at 372 bucks a head to maintain, with fuel cost sliding that might come in a little lower this year and I don't take another direct hit from a hurricane.
 

aplusmnt

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Caustic Burno":1jf3lis7 said:
Rogerwilco":1jf3lis7 said:
aplusmnt":1jf3lis7 said:
backhoeboogie":1jf3lis7 said:
aplusmnt":1jf3lis7 said:
The Governement does.

The number of hobby farms continues to grow. The most recent Ag Census shows that hobby farms comprise 59.3% of total farms in the U.S. By their definition, a hobby farm is a farm that makes under $10,000 per year.

Dang. Now I am a hobby farmer by yet another definition. The truth still doesn't hurt tho.

But what if one year I went over 10K? Does that make me a has been but now hobby again farmer?

Important thing is we are the Majority at 59.3% we could rule the world if we pulled together :lol:

I do not even own any cattle yet, but I would say offhand that if 59.3% of the producers any industry had lilttle or no vested interest in producing a quality product or earning a profit that it could not help but drive the value of the industry down to some extent. I'm not saying that it is wrong by any means, or that you shouldn't do whatever you want to, but hopefully everybody understands the goals of the industry and buys in to some simple standards.
Another interesting and genuine statistic is that 8% of the cattle priducers in this country produce 50% of the beef.

You are so right that is my point on the pet owners versus hobby farmers versus the part timer. Part timers are entering this as a business.

OK now I am starting to feel bad, one thing I never thought about is how if someone raises cattle as Tax Break to loose money or as a hobby and puts more cattle in the market, how it might drive the value of the cattle business down! And might hurt the man trying to earn a living in this business.

Might be like what we call scabs that come in and do not have all the right insurance, equipment or permits don't pay taxes and pay people cash. This defiantly hurts the Janitorial as well as other bussinesses.

Something to ponder over! :?
 

Workinonit Farm

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Caustic Burno":1jf3lis7 said:
Rogerwilco":1jf3lis7 said:
that if 59.3% of the producers any industry had lilttle or no vested interest in producing a quality product or earning a profit that it could not help but drive the value of the industry down to some extent.

but hopefully everybody understands the goals of the industry and buys in to some simple standards.
.

You are so right that is my point on the pet owners versus hobby farmers versus the part timer. Part timers are entering this as a business.

This is one reason I get so fired-up at times regarding the management of these animals. There are several so-called "producers" in my area that have the cattle for whatever their reasons are, not really paying attention to the quality of the calf crop they are producing nor paying any attention to their cost of production etc. They like getting the checks at market time, and often wonder why their animals don't bring as much as others. They like the Ag. exemption regarding their real-estate taxes.

About 3 years ago, while chatting with some of these fellows, I asked their opinion regarding the possibility of NAIS, they hadn't a clue what I was talking about, and thought I was nuts that I would believe that such a thing could be implimented. This bothers me, because a large percent of beef animals are raised by folks like these, and it does have an impact on the industry.

I'm not saying that all small-time producers don't care, many do because as Caustic put it, they are operating as a part-time business and running it like a business,and trying to keep up with what's going on in the industry and keeping themselves informed and educated.

I'll shut up for now.

Katherine
 

Caustic Burno

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Workinonit Farm":hl8s1ycj said:
Caustic Burno":hl8s1ycj said:
Rogerwilco":hl8s1ycj said:
that if 59.3% of the producers any industry had lilttle or no vested interest in producing a quality product or earning a profit that it could not help but drive the value of the industry down to some extent.

but hopefully everybody understands the goals of the industry and buys in to some simple standards.
.

You are so right that is my point on the pet owners versus hobby farmers versus the part timer. Part timers are entering this as a business.

This is one reason I get so fired-up at times regarding the management of these animals. There are several so-called "producers" in my area that have the cattle for whatever their reasons are, not really paying attention to the quality of the calf crop they are producing nor paying any attention to their cost of production etc. They like getting the checks at market time, and often wonder why their animals don't bring as much as others. They like the Ag. exemption regarding their real-estate taxes.

About 3 years ago, while chatting with some of these fellows, I asked their opinion regarding the possibility of NAIS, they hadn't a clue what I was talking about, and thought I was nuts that I would believe that such a thing could be implimented. This bothers me, because a large percent of beef animals are raised by folks like these, and it does have an impact on the industry.

I'm not saying that all small-time producers don't care, many do because as Caustic put it, they are operating as a part-time business and running it like a business,and trying to keep up with what's going on in the industry and keeping themselves informed and educated.

I'll shut up for now.

Katherine

This is a big issue for the industry its not the number of head you own but the attitude that the pet owner hobby rancher operate that is hurting the industry.
I am not in favor of NAIS but I am registered as it is required in Texas. I can see both sides of the arguement with the truth being somewhere in the middle.
You let this economy colapse as it did in the seventies with 16% inflation again with the fuel prices on top of that you won't get 50 cents a pound on the hoof, especially when the hobby farmers play money dries up and something has to go hmm lets see the bass boat, the deer lease, golf or old Belle.
Old Belle is cat food bound. It was bad in the seventies when American were not carrying an average of 20,000 dollars credit card debt.
The economy is not bad now we are seeing the fuel price jumps but this time inflation is not running away.
 

Herefordcross

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Caustic Burno
Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 2:02 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Herefordcross wrote:
Ask me about profit at the end of this year and I'll give you an exact per head figure.


I hope you make a bundle.
Last year I was at 372 bucks a head to maintain, with fuel cost sliding that might come in a little lower this year and I don't take another direct hit from a hurricane.

Caustic last year due to several factors I was at $368 a head.

I can understand your frustration with so many people flooding the market part timers hobby people and tax break people. Here's an example for you. I have a friend whose grandmother left him and his brother 131 acre farm with a house and two barns on it. Tornado came through and tore every building down and they had no insurance on the buildings, they did on the house, that's just a side note. They make a fair income but, nothing to get rich off of from their normal jobs .In order to afford the taxes on the farm they keep 50 brood cows and a bull on the place yet they don't have time for the cattle, had a pinkeye outbreak and the only time they could work the cattle was on sunday so I helped 'em out and did whatever I could for 'em. Sold all of the calves from this year last monday and all but, a handful were blind. So you know how much money they lost over calves with good eyes. He told me when I went up to get the calves and take 'em to the sale barn that they had just spent the last few thousand left from the ins. on the house for prp. taxes and a few thousand feet of fence and new well and a couple of water hydrants. He said that the cows would have to carry the taxes from now on and if not they would have to sell the place. The new homes around here and building have raised taxes terribly! They tried the renting thing and people just didn't keep up to their fences and they're only about a 1/2 mile off of the intersatate so that didn't work out for 'em. And there's an old fishing lease through the state forever, to allow people to fish in the stream on the property which they have to carry extra liability insurance for, because all of our new CITY people neighbors might drown in 12" of water or get swept away by a massive tidal wave. So they just add roughly fifety calves to the sale once a year that really wouldn't need to be there but, they're doing it to try to hold on to the home place. So I don't know what you do in that situation. And they're not the only ones. You ought to hear my vet tell the story of a DR. that came here, bought a place and started buying cows to save on property taxes and when he got the last few heifers from the sale barn within three weeks the whole bunch was dead from what was assumed was some sort of shipping fever the Dr. had 'em disposed of and went and bought more then paid the vet to vac/worm/dehorn and the rest and our vet paid me to help and it was a big joke. I have to work off of our place to pay my $7,200 a year health insurance bill on me my wife and two daughters. Sorry for ramblin' on and on but, I know what you feel like sometimes. They'll have a feeder sale and these dr's and lawyers creep feed until their calves are gorged because the feed store has shinny creep feeders sitting on the lot and of course the feed store doesn't mind keeping those feeders full of 16% protein feed at a few hundred a ton and I can't say I blame 'em but, I can't afford to creep all of the time every time that I'm gettin' ready to ship a lot of fed calves. I would loose my behind if I did that. I'll quit now.
 

KNERSIE

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Not wanting to get into the hobby farmer argument as I am quite a few thousand miles from you guys and would not really know what I speak of as regards to your situation I just want to offer my opinion on the situation here in SA.

Quite a few of the so-called more influential seedstock producers in SA are rich businessmen who practises purebred breeding as a high profile hobby. The main interest being success in the showring and well published record topping sales.
The added benefit would be the tax write-offs.

The consequences of this is that the cattle are overfed (they want to write the loss off as tax, anyway) to produce even more overfed show type cattle with little regard to the natural environment where the commercial farmer has to produce offspring from these record topping bulls. The result being high maintenance,large framed cows that simply don't produce in our arid environment. Now the rest of the purebred breeders that don't operate that way is usually the runt of the "purebred family" and the good bulls they produce are being talked down by the highprofile hobbyist resulting in more commercial cattlemen falling into the same trap. The vicious circle just continues.

Now this is the type of hobbyist that really hurts the industry, at least here in my part of the world.
 

KenB

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KNERSIE":1osmdi4y said:
Not wanting to get into the hobby farmer argument as I am quite a few thousand miles from you guys and would not really know what I speak of as regards to your situation I just want to offer my opinion on the situation here in SA.

Quite a few of the so-called more influential seedstock producers in SA are rich businessmen who practises purebred breeding as a high profile hobby. The main interest being success in the showring and well published record topping sales.
The added benefit would be the tax write-offs.

The consequences of this is that the cattle are overfed (they want to write the loss off as tax, anyway) to produce even more overfed show type cattle with little regard to the natural environment where the commercial farmer has to produce offspring from these record topping bulls. The result being high maintenance,large framed cows that simply don't produce in our arid environment. Now the rest of the purebred breeders that don't operate that way is usually the runt of the "purebred family" and the good bulls they produce are being talked down by the highprofile hobbyist resulting in more commercial cattlemen falling into the same trap. The vicious circle just continues.

Now this is the type of hobbyist that really hurts the industry, at least here in my part of the world.

I agree, That takes place in the USA also.
 

Bluestem

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Caustic Burno quote-"I am not in favor of NAIS but I am registered as it is required in Texas."
Been following this thread. I don't want it to go off topic, though it has somewhat. But I don't think registeration is required yet in Texas. They want you to think it is.
 

Caustic Burno

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Bluestem":1m7zmcv5 said:
Caustic Burno quote-"I am not in favor of NAIS but I am registered as it is required in Texas."
Been following this thread. I don't want it to go off topic, though it has somewhat. But I don't think registeration is required yet in Texas. They want you to think it is.

You had to have your farm registered by July 1St at the start of the year. They moved the start date back to ? you will have to be registered. To many PAC's pushing this issue.
 

KMacGinley

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KNERSIE":3dnjjpcd said:
Not wanting to get into the hobby farmer argument as I am quite a few thousand miles from you guys and would not really know what I speak of as regards to your situation I just want to offer my opinion on the situation here in SA.

Quite a few of the so-called more influential seedstock producers in SA are rich businessmen who practises purebred breeding as a high profile hobby. The main interest being success in the showring and well published record topping sales.
The added benefit would be the tax write-offs.

The consequences of this is that the cattle are overfed (they want to write the loss off as tax, anyway) to produce even more overfed show type cattle with little regard to the natural environment where the commercial farmer has to produce offspring from these record topping bulls. The result being high maintenance,large framed cows that simply don't produce in our arid environment. Now the rest of the purebred breeders that don't operate that way is usually the runt of the "purebred family" and the good bulls they produce are being talked down by the highprofile hobbyist resulting in more commercial cattlemen falling into the same trap. The vicious circle just continues.

Now this is the type of hobbyist that really hurts the industry, at least here in my part of the world.

Are you sure that you are not from America? :D
 

KNERSIE

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KMacGinley,

I'm quite sure I'm not from the USA, but it seems like as long as there are tax benefits from farming losses and prestige from showring victories it doesn't make a difference where you are from, we all face a universal problem.

For a reason unexplicable to me bull customers insist on fat overfed bulls. I even had a bull customer this week ordering his next bull offering to feed his prospective new bull out himself from weaning on till he goes through his classification by the breed inspector which is only done around 18 months. He actually expected me to let him take a 7 month bull off the farm to bring him back at 18 months to be classified. I was gobsmacked to say the least![/quote]
 

andybob

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Knersie,is veld performance testing still popular?or have the show type bulls contiued to dominate the market?
My biggest selling point when I was exporting, was the on veld performance of my herd, so the demand for functional cattle has always been strong amongst practical ranchers who actually have to make their living from their cattle.
 

KNERSIE

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Veld performance testing is very popular in certain areas and is a good thing, however some of the extensive farming type cattle lacks muscle. If only we can meet halfway between the show types and the veld types. the extensive guys take that to the extreme the same as the show guys.

From my personal experience a reasonably heavy muscled animal do just as good under veld conditions.
 

Rogerwilco

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KNERSIE":24pzrkd2 said:
Veld performance testing is very popular in certain areas and is a good thing, however some of the extensive farming type cattle lacks muscle. If only we can meet halfway between the show types and the veld types. the extensive guys take that to the extreme the same as the show guys.

From my personal experience a reasonably heavy muscled animal do just as good under veld conditions.

Do they not use some established standard methods of qualilty grade and yield grade for cattle there?
 

KNERSIE

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exactly the same as in the USA, performance testing is also compulsory in the purebred industry regardless of breed, genestar testing is also taking off now.

About the only difference is slightly different emphasis on certain conformation points. We need more backfat as an emergency energy source in droughts, a slick shiny haircoat for tick resistance is not even negotiable, we place a lot of emphasis on eyebanks and lashes pointing downwards to protect the eyes. In other words the eyes must be hooded and pigmented, we also prefer a slight slope from hooks to pins for easier calving in extensive conditions. Personally I wouldn't discriminate against a rougher thicker made female as they tend to be easier keeping under my conditions.

Otherwise good cattle in SA is exactly the same as good cattle elsewhere in the world.
 
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I have enjoyed reading and also learned quite a bit from reading many of these responses. I know I have much more to learn. I only have 5 cows as of right now and have just started this beef cow project last winter. As of now I haven't seen or experienced the expenses and other complications brought up in some of the post. For the most part I bought the cows and have had them pastured with little maintenance having to be done involving the cows. I borrowed a registered bull and I think they are bred. I found a couple of laid out fields and worked a deal with a guy to bail I think it was sixty 800 lb. round bails of hay for me to get me through the winter. I paid him $8.00 per bail and he left it in the field. Unless something changes I don't see a lot of problems with me increasing my herd size over time.

With that said; after reading some of the replies to my original post on profit per head I wonder if I am in for a rude awakening. It kind of makes me wonder if I am going in the right direction with cows and maybe I should just sign the cow pastures I have available up in some kind of CRP or CREP program with the government. Heck they pay something like $100.00 per acre, per year for 15 years to watch trees grow. In 30 years you can then cut the trees and put the money in your pocket. Have a good day!

Donnie
 

john250

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Donnie Frazier":3u496sek said:
I have enjoyed reading and also learned quite a bit from reading many of these responses. I know I have much more to learn. I only have 5 cows as of right now and have just started this beef cow project last winter. As of now I haven't seen or experienced the expenses and other complications brought up in some of the post. For the most part I bought the cows and have had them pastured with little maintenance having to be done involving the cows. I borrowed a registered bull and I think they are bred. I found a couple of laid out fields and worked a deal with a guy to bail I think it was sixty 800 lb. round bails of hay for me to get me through the winter. I paid him $8.00 per bail and he left it in the field. Unless something changes I don't see a lot of problems with me increasing my herd size over time.

With that said; after reading some of the replies to my original post on profit per head I wonder if I am in for a rude awakening. It kind of makes me wonder if I am going in the right direction with cows and maybe I should just sign the cow pastures I have available up in some kind of CRP or CREP program with the government. Heck they pay something like $100.00 per acre, per year for 15 years to watch trees grow. In 30 years you can then cut the trees and put the money in your pocket. Have a good day!

Donnie

$100/acre is your benchmark on income.

You might beat that with a cow, you might not. If you lack experience, probably not--in the beginning.

Cattle, like most Ag enterprises, are vigorous consumers of capital. You'll borrow money or divert off-farm income to the cattle. Handling facilities, barns, better bulls. How bad do you wanta play?

Sharpen a pencil.
 
OP
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My benchmark is more like $200.00 to $300.00 per head. If I don't see where I am going to profit at least that it will be just as you put it playing. I do enjoy being arond cows and working them but I am not looking a hobby. I am looking to make some extra $. Thanks,

Donnie
 

Bama

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Depends on how sharp your pencil is. $300 dollars on a calf is hard to achieve. Figure in all cost and it will be much less. Most of the time less than half that. The most I got last year was 287 dollar profit on a calf. That was an exception. I don't expect it, and very rarely go above $225. I have also went as low as $4.00 profit on a calf. You have to take the good with the bad. The ones you lose goes into the negative numbers.
 

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