Problems in the Limousin breed

[Red Bull Breeder]

After reading this thread, I have to wonder how i have managed to keep so many cows until they were 14 to 16 years old. Oldest one i have had was 25 years old when we sold her.Guess i just been lucky.

 

[Stocker Steve]

After reading this thread, I have to wonder how i have managed to keep so many cows until they were 14 to 16 years old. Oldest one i have had was 25 years old when we sold her.Guess i just been lucky.

Yes, very lucky for you. I just shipped 2 young "dual purpose" cows with bad bags...

 

[ALACOWMAN]

After reading this thread, I have to wonder how i have managed to keep so many cows until they were 14 to 16 years old. Oldest one i have had was 25 years old when we sold her.Guess i just been lucky.

if they had johnes ''wasting disease'' you wouldnt... difference in poor doer and one thats slowly die'in

 

[houstoncutter]

How can you possibly blame the Limo problems on dairy Johnes cows :shock: ??
All the "exotics" (as they were called back then) were implanted in dairy cattle. I don't doubt you purchased a dairy recip that had Johnes, but that does not "explain" the problems in a breed. Back then only dairy cattle were used, because pretty much noone AI'd, let alone implanted, beef cattle.

Jeanne, hang in here for a minute and I will try to explain my convuluted thing..... Lets think back...you and I are old enough... :hide: lol..... Exotics as you have called them, and Limousin had the biggest registration numbers by far, probably as many as all the exotics combined. The poor scrotal and disposition had nothing to do with Johnes, but the knock of hard keeping cattle just might. Back then most bulls were not sold until they were at least 2 years of age or older, and most cows were calved out as 3 year olds.

Johnes usually begins to rear its ugly head at about 4 years of age. So lets say your 4year old cows having calved their fist calf coming on their second seem to not be thrifty. I mean what better example of a hard keeper would be, than a cow that has Johnes. It slowly but steadly takes her down, and all the while she is dropping sheds in your pasture. The same with a bull and many and just about all of the better bulls were embryo animals. Understand where I am going with this...Think back... all the Exotics were called hard keepers and yes that includes your beloved Simmentals. They were called hard keepers but some people seemed to have no problems at all, also the countries were they came from, the cattle had no problem there. Only here in North America.

I personally will not touch an embryo bull unless he has been tested free, nor will I purchase animals that do not come from a Johnes tested free herd.....My thinking on the Exotics may be a pie in the sky...........but you know it also might be spot on as to why so many of the earl Exotics were called hard keepers. I think all cattle people should read up on Johnes...its a booger to get rid of because of the sheds.


Now if that isnt enough to make you wonder I will share another little tidbit. I was pm by a Texas A&M college professor about "pie in the sky idea". According to this fella the idea has a lot of merit, but no one has touched it in academia due to the potential legal issues it would bring up... In his words, " better to let sleeping dogs lie"...So all you Limousin bashers acn have a field day with your comments. All I can say as a commercial cattleman that has owned a whole bunch of bulls of different breeds, Limousin has been my bull of choice. Of course as they continue to move away from the muscle, combined with small birth weights,they will probably force me to look at something new if I get back in the cattle biz

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

I'm not "poo-pooing" your theory completely. Yes, there's a strong possiblity that beef herds got "infested" with Johnes thru ET calves coming out of dairy recips.
But, that's no excuse for Limo's vs Simmental vs Gelbvieh vs Charolais. They all had the same "potential" to have Johnes ancestors. You made it sound like their lack of guts, hard doers were because early on, they had Johnes???
Anything that had Johnes from ET's didn't last long.
And, "normally" a 2-yr old heifer will show the first signs of Johnes after her first calf. Bulls may take longer. "It" shows it's nasty head when the animal is under stress.
It is a hideous disease. We've tested our herd a few times & keep an eye open at all times. You never know where it can sneak in.
Another major form of "infestation", was all the universities advised all the beef producers to go to their local neighborhood dairy & get colostrum to have on hand for any problem at calving. Now, that turned out to be a great idea :shock:
So, if you're saying ALL "exotics" (Continentals) were hard doers back in the 70's because of Johnes spreading rampid thru the crossbred herds - maybe that's feasable - but I still don't buy it.
Obviously, you had personal incidence of it, and that makes it very plausible to you. I'm not saying it COULDN'T have been an issue - just don't think it's an excuse for modern day Limo's to have any problem - if they have a problem. Or - it would be the same problem in all the Continentals.

 

[Brandonm22]

Assuming there is SOME TRUTH in Houstoncutter's Johnes Theory, If a commercial cattleman DID buy some cattle from a Limousin breeder and those cows and their heifer calves 'wasted away' ~around 5 to 9 years old like the typical Johnes cow and ended up as underweight salvage or dead; can we really blame that commercial cattleman if he never used that breeder again? It would seem like something I would do. It is certainly not a stretch to go from there to writing off the entire breed. I am not saying that would be completely justified; but I could certainly see how THAT experience would be long remembered.

 

[Kingfisher]

Assuming there is SOME TRUTH in Houstoncutter's Johnes Theory, If a commercial cattleman DID buy some cattle from a Limousin breeder and those cows and their heifer calves 'wasted away' ~around 5 to 9 years old like the typical Johnes cow and ended up as underweight salvage or dead; can we really blame that commercial cattleman if he never used that breeder again? It would seem like something I would do. It is certainly not a stretch to go from there to writing off the entire breed. I am not saying that would be completely justified; but I could certainly see how THAT experience would be long remembered.

Yea that scenario would stink...especially if they performed well for you then just up and died. Does that really happen ? Thanks for your post.

 

[houstoncutter]

Assuming there is SOME TRUTH in Houstoncutter's Johnes Theory, If a commercial cattleman DID buy some cattle from a Limousin breeder and those cows and their heifer calves 'wasted away' ~around 5 to 9 years old like the typical Johnes cow and ended up as underweight salvage or dead; can we really blame that commercial cattleman if he never used that breeder again? It would seem like something I would do. It is certainly not a stretch to go from there to writing off the entire breed. I am not saying that would be completely justified; but I could certainly see how THAT experience would be long remembered.

Brandon22, we have a breeder here in Texas that purchased a Grand Champion bull that turned out to have Johnes. These folks are still in business, but they have had a tough time of it, all because of that one bull. If that one bull would have never showed up on there ranch, I think these folks would have been a major seedstock producer.

 

[houstoncutter]

Jeanne, I have had very few Exotics that were hard keeping cattle, but the one group of Limmy heifers when I was doing a little of the club calf thing were real doozys. Just about every animal in that herd of 25 were Johnes positive. They all were embryo cows....So yea I took a bath.....

As for my modern day Limmy bulls I have had very few problems....and these boys have to hustle to stay around here.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Kingfisher and those unfamiliar with Johnes. Here's a site everyone should check out:
www.Johnes.org
Johnes is spread invitro (sp?), thru colostrum, & fecal matter. Almost always only is transmitted to newborns and very young calves. You cannot test for it (blood & fecal) until they are 2+ yrs old. And the tests are NOT conclusively negative - although they are conclusively positive. You cannot consider your herd clean until you have had several tests done. It cannot be 'CURED". The better management a farm has, the less you will see the results of the disease until cattle are much older. But, 2 yr olds at calving will usually start showing diarhea.
Cattle can have it for years without you suspecting. All the time shedding it in their feces. Under stress, some might show "some" diarhea and then it clears up & they are fine, till they have another stress factor. Pretty soon, they just keep losing weight, have diarhea, but have a great appetite & "act" healthy. Finally, they literally "****" themselves to death.
Nasty, nasty disease. Very high incidence of it in the dairy industry. Mostly because of the close quarters & constant exposure to manure. Less likely to spread in a beef herds, except in cow families, because a cow carrying it generally will pass it on to the offspring.

 

[Stocker Steve]

I bought 2 limi unweaned (685 and 675#) bulls who way outgained BA on pasture last fall and are now 15 months. Really really tame - - you can walk up to them (carrying the appropriate just in case tool) and touch them. Great dispositions. One is looking a bit framy, has a huge pair, and stands by himself and drips. The other one is really really long and hung like a squirrel... Not sure how they are going to turn out.

The wife said today that it was nice that we had an eagle soaring over the woods... Went for a walk and found "Squirrel Boy" laid up. Looks like "Mr. Big" did a number on him. A very sore hip and he urinates at a right angle. Burger time?

 

[Stocker Steve]

Just butchered a pair of sort of fertile grass fed Limi flex heifers. The best carcass we have ever hung. Awesome looking marbled meat, but may be a little too much cover for me.

 

[polledbull]

folks , dont compare the fullblood limis to the black modern limi genetics, almost like 2 differrent breeds , and as far as easy keeping , I sell alot of bulls , Lim and angus , and my limis do far and away better on the exact same ration on full feed, than the angus bulls do, I am yet to have an angus to perform like my limis , from weaning to 2 yr old.

 

[WalnutCrest]

Just butchered a pair of sort of fertile grass fed Limi flex heifers. The best carcass we have ever hung. Awesome looking marbled meat, but may be a little too much cover for me.

We hung a half-Aubrac / half-limi cow this past February. One of our beef buyers described the ribeye as "beef butter" ... she was pulled off of a ration of nothing fancier than prairie hay and some rumen-activating microbes. Spectacular beef.

 

[Nesikep]

I am excited to see what our bull will produce for us.. I know that Limos are known for good carcass quality and meat, but that's hard to judge while the animal is alive. I know that my SH/GV cross steer I sold to a friend that was butchered at 30 months was excellent, the butcher said it was some of the nicest meat he's ever seen, and he was fed on grass only (and a bunch of thistles and burdock). I kept a very closely related sibling of his who looks like he should be outstanding as well, Starting with his carefree disposition that means he doesn't get stressed out about anything (even weaning).
I will say our Limo bull is like a giant steer as far as his disposition goes, very laid back and a big baby who comes around for a neckrub once in a while. I will say I'm hedging my bets with him though until I see how his calves perform, he has a lot of frame, nuts, and butts, but not much gut. I think he may do well with some of my cows (Most of the stout GV crosses), and miserably with others (the frameier ones (the predominantly SH crosses))