Problems in the Limousin breed

[KNERSIE]

I did not plan to keep both Limi bulls long term, but the unfortuately the best body type does not look highly fertile. He could become are very expensive steer.
and perhaps I should have bought one more bull...

When you say infertile heifers - - are you saying they won't settle, or that they start cycling at an older age, or?

Usually it means they just aren't as fertile as you need them to be to be a viable cow/calf operation. It may mean more open heifers, some that start cycling late, longer ICP, it all boils down to the same thing, less profit.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

I did not plan to keep both Limi bulls long term, but the unfortuately the best body type does not look highly fertile. He could become are very expensive steer.
and perhaps I should have bought one more bull...

When you say infertile heifers - - are you saying they won't settle, or that they start cycling at an older age, or?

Usually it means they just aren't as fertile as you need them to be to be a viable cow/calf operation. It may mean more open heifers, some that start cycling late, longer ICP, it all boils down to the same thing, less profit.

Correct! The assn said they had a lot of culling based on open cattle.

 

[angus9259]

I'm no limi expert, but I wonder how much of these "issues" are/were historic? I've sold quite a few angus bulls into limi herds and they seemed to have plenty of capacity and didn't look to be hard doers at all.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Problems in Limousin breed are have been caused by the same thing as the problems in most other breeds. Breeders trying to make them some thing they are not and breeders with no busniess breeding seedstock.

 

[1wlimo]

Of the herd I was looking after here the full blood limo cows did better than the baldies on poor feed. They weaned lighter calves it is true but then you would expect that.

There was a problem with many of the heifers here coming up into the full blood herd, but the ones I calved this spring of which half were my own did really well, so I would put this bad performance down to the fact that the previouse heifers were not raised properly.

 

[Kingfisher]

Local bull sales show limi BWs all over the map. There seems to be a wide range of genetics. I calved out 2 full bloods this spring - - and got a 60# and a 75# calf. My BA were much bigger and a little blocker on average, with 118# being the winner this year. I shipped the BA bull. :nod:

I bought 2 limi unweaned (685 and 675#) bulls who way outgained BA on pasture last fall and are now 15 months. Really really tame - - you can walk up to them (carrying the appropriate just in case tool) and touch them. Great dispositions. One is looking a bit framy, has a huge pair, and stands by himself and drips. The other one is really really long and hung like a squirrel... Not sure how they are going to turn out.
Why don't you show em to us just for grins ?

 

[robert]

Problems in Limousin breed are have been caused by the same thing as the problems in most other breeds. Breeders trying to make them some thing they are not and breeders with no busniess breeding seedstock.

that gets a standing :clap: from me!

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Thank you Robert. If anyone wants to find out whats wrong with Limousin cattle go to the NALF website and take a short read of the history of limousin. Historicly they were a breed adapted to thrive on sparse forage in a rugged inviroment to calve unassisted as two year olds out in the pastures. Limousin got caught in the frame race same as other breeds.

 

[KNERSIE]

I'm no expert of what was selected for historically in the breed, but not all that long ago, the judges seemed to favour very light bone, very posty animals with no middle piece and harped on about meat to bone ratio. I thought it was because of continentals being imported into the USA that started the frame race in the British breeds and that the continentals was so far ahead of the game that they never really got drawn in? Limousin cattle here aren't extreme in size at all, they are outstanding terminal bulls, its just the fertility of the females letting them down. Of all the continental breeds limousin is the only one I would use unless my conditions change so much that I can make Simmental cows work.

 

[JustSimmental]

This is a very interesting quote:

"Limousin cattle here aren't extreme in size at all, they are outstanding terminal bulls, its just the fertility of the females letting them down".

Don't you think that the fertility issues in the cows stem from the use of fertility deficient Sires>?

I'm no expert of what was selected for historically in the breed, but not all that long ago, the judges seemed to favour very light bone, very posty animals with no middle piece and harped on about meat to bone ratio. I thought it was because of continentals being imported into the USA that started the frame race in the British breeds and that the continentals was so far ahead of the game that they never really got drawn in? Limousin cattle here aren't extreme in size at all, they are outstanding terminal bulls, its just the fertility of the females letting them down. Of all the continental breeds limousin is the only one I would use unless my conditions change so much that I can make Simmental cows work.

 

[KNERSIE]

This is a very interesting quote:

"Limousin cattle here aren't extreme in size at all, they are outstanding terminal bulls, its just the fertility of the females letting them down".

Don't you think that the fertility issues in the cows stem from the use of fertility deficient Sires>?

I'm no expert of what was selected for historically in the breed, but not all that long ago, the judges seemed to favour very light bone, very posty animals with no middle piece and harped on about meat to bone ratio. I thought it was because of continentals being imported into the USA that started the frame race in the British breeds and that the continentals was so far ahead of the game that they never really got drawn in? Limousin cattle here aren't extreme in size at all, they are outstanding terminal bulls, its just the fertility of the females letting them down. Of all the continental breeds limousin is the only one I would use unless my conditions change so much that I can make Simmental cows work.

Probably, it could also be that reproduction never was emphasised by the then leaders in the breed?

 

[JustSimmental]

You are right --we can blame the French!
Sounds good
JS

 

[houstoncutter]

Knersie and Just Simmental, personally I think the French did pull a fast one on some of the early Limousin breeders. Having said that, if you have seen some of the French Limousin herd in person, you will find all the animals to be large scrotaled beef and milk producing machines. Some of those early Limmy bulls were outstanding, but some where trash.I will still stand behind my statement that I think Johne's played a role in some of the problems in the early cattle... I have heard the figure of 45% of the dairy herd in the 80's where carriers of this disease... If you were a dairy farmer and you had a hard keeping 4 or 5 year old cow and some beef producers were trying to by receipt cows, think you would sell those hard keepers. You bet u would, you would probably even tell the buyer that the cow was a hard keeper...but she would give plenty of milk for the production of a calf. I am sure it was spread in other beef herds as well. It just happens that at the time Johne's was really being spread, Limousin was the flavor of the month breed.

 

[Brandonm22]

Johnes does not explain the fine bone or the little nuts. I was still doing judging contests back then and we were coached to pick the tallest, longest profiling animals we could find in a class. Limousin was a real easy breed to select for height, length, and ripped muscle expression. As someone who advocates cross breeding, I wish that Limousin had kept all the muscle and not chased fertility and doability. Likewise I wish Angus had not chased all the post weaning growth, mature bulk, and frame. Instead of maximizing their strengths and advocating a 3 way or rototerminal crossbreeding system every major American breed is chasing the purebred animal that does everything: feedlot, range, rail, meatcase, showring, etc and it means there are a lot of animals in every breed that are flawed in some way..........and sometimes those flaws are the opposite of what we would expect from that breed. The breed generalities just do not work anymore.

 

[hillsdown]

Knersie and Just Simmental, personally I think the French did pull a fast one on some of the early Limousin breeders. Having said that, if you have seen some of the French Limousin herd in person, you will find all the animals to be large scrotaled beef and milk producing machines. Some of those early Limmy bulls were outstanding, but some where trash.I will still stand behind my statement that I think Johne's played a role in some of the problems in the early cattle... I have heard the figure of 45% of the dairy herd in the 80's where carriers of this disease... If you were a dairy farmer and you had a hard keeping 4 or 5 year old cow and some beef producers were trying to by receipt cows, think you would sell those hard keepers. You bet u would, you would probably even tell the buyer that the cow was a hard keeper...but she would give plenty of milk for the production of a calf. I am sure it was spread in other beef herds as well. It just happens that at the time Johne's was really being spread, Limousin was the flavor of the month breed.

Why on earth would you use a cow as a recip let alone a dairy cow . Dairy cows have enough fertility problems as it is, let alone trying to implant them.

 

[houstoncutter]

Johnes does not explain the fine bone or the little nuts. I was still doing judging contests back then and we were coached to pick the tallest, longest profiling animals we could find in a class. Limousin was a real easy breed to select for height, length, and ripped muscle expression. As someone who advocates cross breeding, I wish that Limousin had kept all the muscle and not chased fertility and doability. Likewise I wish Angus had not chased all the post weaning growth, mature bulk, and frame. Instead of maximizing their strengths and advocating a 3 way or rototerminal crossbreeding system every major American breed is chasing the purebred animal that does everything: feedlot, range, rail, meatcase, showring, etc and it means there are a lot of animals in every breed that are flawed in some way..........and sometimes those flaws are the opposite of what we would expect from that breed. The breed generalities just do not work anymore.

I agree with you Brandonm22 on the crossbreeding, I have never understood why ranchers want to leave money on the table when it comes to hybrid kick.. If you where judging back then you did see a few Limmy bulls with a decent scrotal, but is seems that most of those bulls where not in favor at the time....Go figure

 

[houstoncutter]

Knersie and Just Simmental, personally I think the French did pull a fast one on some of the early Limousin breeders. Having said that, if you have seen some of the French Limousin herd in person, you will find all the animals to be large scrotaled beef and milk producing machines. Some of those early Limmy bulls were outstanding, but some where trash.I will still stand behind my statement that I think Johne's played a role in some of the problems in the early cattle... I have heard the figure of 45% of the dairy herd in the 80's where carriers of this disease... If you were a dairy farmer and you had a hard keeping 4 or 5 year old cow and some beef producers were trying to by receipt cows, think you would sell those hard keepers. You bet u would, you would probably even tell the buyer that the cow was a hard keeper...but she would give plenty of milk for the production of a calf. I am sure it was spread in other beef herds as well. It just happens that at the time Johne's was really being spread, Limousin was the flavor of the month breed.

Why on earth would you use a cow as a recip let alone a dairy cow . Dairy cows have enough fertility problems as it is, let alone trying to implant them.

Hillsdown, cant explain it, but that is the way it was done at the time. I know my Dad bought a receipt cow with a embryo out of 11D and Uranus...It made a heck of a bull, it also had Johne"s..We were somewhat lucky in that the bull was only around a small portion of our cattle and land. Both the cow and bull had it. We were going to use the cow as a nurse cow, she wouldnt get back in shape to breed so we took her to the vet. We had a young vet fresh out of Penn State, not our usual Texas A&M vets...he suggested we test her for Johnes. She was positive, so was the bull. We took em to the sale ring, told the auctioneer that they needed to got to slaughter because of the Johnes. The cow did, but danged if someone didnt buy that bull and put him in their herd. They contacted me to see if they could buy his papers, they used that bull for 2 more years... Of course this fella is no longer in the cattle biz...Those early years with Limousin cattle were nuts....not the cattle, but the people wanting to buy them even though many were inferior.

 

[Brandonm22]

I did not say that ALL Limousins then were lacking. It is hard to come up with a breed where I can say all are ____________ anything Good or bad traits. I do remember some individuals that were frame 8 (or more), LONG, pencil gutted, post legged and a lot of those also were lacking scrotally. Spotting the train wrecks was the challenge then. I remember some pencil gutted race horse type Herefords too around then and I don't know WHERE that phenotype came from in the Hereford breed. I suspect that if you take any population of cattle and you select for ONLY maximum hip height with no reguard for anything else there will be functionality problems within four generations.

 

[Stocker Steve]

I purchased one hereford x limi cow. She was not my favorite but I am starting to appreciate her. A little framy, but she winters well, calves early, really watches that calf, and it's weaning wt is average. Seems to be bullet proof money maker. Must be the Herf side. ;-) I think she is 15. Odd thing is she will try to chase the calves away if someone strange gets in the pasture when the calves are young...
I purchased two BA bred limi females at a dispersal last fall. One is raising the biggest calf on the place, the other aborted. Not making much money with a 50% calf crop.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

How can you possibly blame the Limo problems on dairy Johnes cows :shock: ??
All the "exotics" (as they were called back then) were implanted in dairy cattle. I don't doubt you purchased a dairy recip that had Johnes, but that does not "explain" the problems in a breed. Back then only dairy cattle were used, because pretty much noone AI'd, let alone implanted, beef cattle.