problem.... reg. polled hereford throwing horned calves!

[pd]

Hi
Last year I purchased a pedigree and registered polled Hereford bull specifically because I did not want to dehorn calves.

Now some of the calves are just starting to show horn buds !!

Have you ever heard of this happening with a polled Hereford? :?:

I have seen the bull's pedigree and it is all polled back several generations.

I have not spoken to the breeder yet - but will do next week.

Darn nuisance too as I was just about to put him back in with the cows and now I have to look at getting another bull

 

[Campground Cattle]

Yes as some polled will throw calfs with scurs.

 

[greenwillowherefords]

Are they full-fledged horns or just scurs?

 

[txag]

yep. w/the merger of the two associations, lots of folks are crossing both horned & polled. even with polled for several generations, that darn recessive horned gene could just be hangin' around waiting to match up w/cows with horned genes to throw horned calves.

 

[pd]

Thanks for your replies. I hope they are scurs!

The calves are only 8 weeks old (max) so all I have seen are the little buds.

At what stage will I know if they are scurs or horns and how do I tell??

I understood that a homozygous polled bull would leave me with polled projeny even when put over cows with horned genes. But maybe I've been duped and the ball has a nasty recessive horned gene! Wouldn't that give me some come-back with the breeder, as I paid for a polled (meaning homozygous polled) bull?

 

[txag]

Thanks for your replies. I hope they are scurs!

The calves are only 8 weeks old (max) so all I have seen are the little buds.

At what stage will I know if they are scurs or horns and how do I tell??

if you're only seeing them on the bull calves, that's a fair indication they're scurs. if you're also seeing them on the heifers, more than likely they're horns.

I understood that a homozygous polled bull would leave me with polled projeny even when put over cows with horned genes.

that's true. a homozygous polled bull will only throw polled calves. a double-polled bull (a term the hereford assoc doesn't use but some other breeds do) is not the same as a homozygous bull.

 

[txag]

i forgot to ask......what kind of cows? sometimes you can still get horned calves out of a homozygous polled bull if bred to brahman cows.

 

[pd]

Some Simmentals; Angus/dairy cross; and some composite breeds (composite=hfd/angus/gelbvieh/simmental).

Thanks very much for the tip about the bull calves and scurs. I shall check them out for that.

 

[Campground Cattle]

TXAG is right as usual. In my opinon the Hereford association screwed up when they merged and started recognizing hornedand polled crosses without listing Homo are hetro polled on the papers.

 

[txag]

In my opinon the Hereford association screwed up when they merged and started recognizing hornedand polled crosses without listing Homo are hetro polled on the papers.

there are two problems with that, Campground. the first is that you can't tell homozygous or heterozygous from pedigree and the second problem is that then folks couldn't cross with polleds & sell the polled offspring as polled when it's really only half-polled.

 

[dun]

when it's really only half-polled.

Those one horned cows might be a valuable commodity

dun

 

[Campground Cattle]

In my opinon the Hereford association screwed up when they merged and started recognizing hornedand polled crosses without listing Homo are hetro polled on the papers.

there are two problems with that, Campground. the first is that you can't tell homozygous or heterozygous from pedigree and the second problem is that then folks couldn't cross with polleds & sell the polled offspring as polled when it's really only half-polled.

My point as I did not state it well is you shouldn't be able to cross Horned with polled and register period IMO. IMO again this is a classic example of breeders screwing up again, The papers should state homozygous polled anything crossed with homozygous polled you should not be able to register and should be sold for hamburger. txag we are both Hereford people they should not have ever let the two associations merge IMO again.

 

[TheBullLady]

Do you mean the Hereford Association doesn't indicate on the registration papers if the bull or cow is homozygous polled? Interesting.. Simmentals do make that designation.

 

[Ellie May]

Howdy,
Well my grandad had a polled hereford cow and bull that threw a calf w/ horns one time. we thought it was a throw back but I don't know what to tell you!
Ellie May

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Do you mean the Hereford Association doesn't indicate on the registration papers if the bull or cow is homozygous polled? Interesting.. Simmentals do make that designation.

Hmm, I don't understand your statement. The Simmental registration papers say if they are polled - polled/scurred - or horned. The sire summary will designate heterozygous (by known pedigree - ie HORNED parent bred to a polled parent) or proven homozygous polled bulls.

As far as the question as to when you can tell if they are scurs or horns - that is very difficult. The Simmental breed recommends waiting til they are weaned, and if they are small & loose (not attached to the head) they are scurs. Scurs are a "sex-linked" gene. They are recessive in heifers (so the heifer has to inherit two genes for them to be expressed) and they are dominant for bull calves (inherit one scur gene & the calf is scurred.) So as someone else said, if only the bull calves are showing the buds, high probability they are scurrs.

 

[Bez]

Some Simmentals; Angus/dairy cross; and some composite breeds (composite=hfd/angus/gelbvieh/simmental).

Thanks very much for the tip about the bull calves and scurs. I shall check them out for that.

Darned near every one of these cattle combo's might have the horn gene hidden in it. Cannot necessarily blame the bull from what I am reading.

Simmentals carry horns in some cases. Anything with dairy can give you horns - never been around Gelb's so can't say for sure.

As for those many times cross bred "composites" - you pays your money and takes your chances.

I figure you gotta' look deeper than the bull in this examination.

Bez

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

If a bull is homozygous polled - ALL his calves would be polled. Even calves out of double horned cows. But, a homozygous bull could be producing scurs, IF - 1. A cow carries a scur gene, (will affect only bull calves) or 2. The bull carries the scur gene (will affect only the bull calves) or 3. Both cow & bull carry the scur gene (both bull & heifers can be affected). Being scurred does not mean that they are not polled. If they are horned the scur gene is not expressed.

 

[txag]

But, a homozygous bull could be producing scurs, 2. The bull carries the scur gene (will affect only the bull calves)

according to the theory that bulls only need one scur gene to be scurred, the bull should be scurred, not polled, in this case.

 

[Bez]

Jeanne - Simme Valley

You know, I must have had my head up my butt when I wrote what I wrote! You are 100% correct and I was wrong.

We run Horned Hereford cattle and cross with Black Angus to get a polled commercial calf to send to market.

Sometimes I have to give my own head a shake.

Have a good one.

Bez

 

[~Tomboy~]

Hi All,

Here's a real good site that talks about polled & scurred genes:

http://www.gelbvieh.org/fsinheri.html

Have a great New Year