Polled Vs. Horned Herford

[novatech]

I don,t know squat what differences there are between polled herfords and horned herfords.
Years ago an old timmer said don,t use a polled as they have big heads and will cause birthing problems. (Seems like a birth weight issue to me)
More resently I was told to use a horned bull as the genetics were better(what ever they ment by that).
I was also told that polled will give you more tigerstripes. (I don,t buy it)
Is there any truth to any of this or is it more old expert advice of people that don,t really know?
Are there any real advantages of one over the other, that can be supported, aside from the horn/poled issue?

 

[ALACOWMAN]

I don,t know squat what differences there are between polled herfords and horned herfords.
Years ago an old timmer said don,t use a polled as they have big heads and will cause birthing problems. (Seems like a birth weight issue to me)
More resently I was told to use a horned bull as the genetics were better(what ever they ment by that).

• I was also told that polled will give you more tigerstripes

. (I don,t buy it)
Is there any truth to any of this or is it more old expert advice of people that don,t really know?
Are there any real advantages of one over the other, that can be supported, aside from the horn/poled issue?

I won't go into the horn/poll debate. but i will tell you that either bull will do the same job as far as stripes. but you'll get more stripes from the grey brahman. with the polled bulls of today theres no way id use a horn bull to raise tigers. although i like horned cattle better.... personal preferance only

 

[dun]

I don,t know squat what differences there are between polled herfords and horned herfords.
Years ago an old timmer said don,t use a polled as they have big heads and will cause birthing problems.

Interesting! We've used Polled because of the easier birthing then horned based strcttly on head shape.
I think years ago the horned genetics wqere superior to the polled. At one time a lot of single trait selection, polled, was going on and some animals that should have been eaten were used to breed.
Now I think you'll find just as good or bad genetics for whatever you're looking for in either type.
Personal opinion but I think a lot of the Hereford pinkeye issue from the past was based more on managment then breed We haven;t had pinkeye in any Herefords or Hereford crosses (knock on pressed fiberboard). But we haven;t had pinkeye in anything else either, including Holsteins.

 

[KNERSIE]

Is there any truth to any of this or is it more old expert advice of people that don,t really know?

I think its the above.

Horned bulls usually have better eyeset than polled bulls, but if you look in the right places you can find bulls of equal quality either horned or polled.

Polled herefords bulls are easier to sell here. I hate dehorning, so I breed polled herefords.

 

[Brandonm2]

There was a time ~15 years ago where I would recommend a Horned line one as a commercial sire over any of the then prevalent polled genetics. At the moment, I would prefer to buy a polled sire, preferably with no recent line one blood in it. I would be reluctant to buy a horned bull right now, because there is no growth advantage to the horned bull (I can get more growth, milk, or muscle from either than I really need) and there is a shadow over the Line Ones because of this "shaker" syndrome. I would have to get on the phone and really get the low down on just what exactly is going on with what lines before I could even begin to consider purchasing a horned bull or a polled one with line one genetics close by in the pedigree. We will know a lot more 10-12 months from now.

 

[novatech]

Thanks for the replies. They pretty much were as I suspected. As soon as I have enough breeding age heifers I will be going back into the F1 breeding program, so I am doing my research now. As far as the tiger stripes I beleive that there a lot of brahman with red in their pedigree which may have an influence on tigerstripe. I would also prefer polled, as the less stress the better.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

Thanks for the replies. They pretty much were as I suspected. As soon as I have enough breeding age heifers I will be going back into the F1 breeding program, so I am doing my research now. As far as the tiger stripes I beleive that there a lot of brahman with red in their pedigree which may have an influence on tigerstripe. I would also prefer polled, as the less stress the better.

and there's alot of reds with grey's in their pedigree and vise versa, but the stripes will be more pronounced with the grey. if it stripes you a shooting for. ive seen outstanding solid red white face goggle eye'd F1'S out of american red's

 

[Caustic Burno]

I don,t know squat what differences there are between polled herfords and horned herfords.
Years ago an old timmer said don,t use a polled as they have big heads and will cause birthing problems. (Seems like a birth weight issue to me)
More resently I was told to use a horned bull as the genetics were better(what ever they ment by that).
I was also told that polled will give you more tigerstripes. (I don,t buy it)
Is there any truth to any of this or is it more old expert advice of people that don,t really know?
Are there any real advantages of one over the other, that can be supported, aside from the horn/poled issue?

Absolutely none they both came from the same genetics.
It is kind of like saying one son is better than the other, both good just look different for the family photo.

 

[novatech]

Alacowman and Caustic I agree with both of you. People buying cattle because of color must be in the leather business.
The unfortunite problem is that tigers will bring more money than reds or red baldies, and the difference can be substantial.
I have to produce what the customers want, right or wrong, to get top dollar. Bull calves don,t bring much. I personelly would just as well have a pasture of reds but would like some uniformity in color either way.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Alacowman and Caustic I agree with both of you. People buying cattle because of color must be in the leather business.
The unfortunite problem is that tigers will bring more money than reds or red baldies, and the difference can be substantial.
I have to produce what the customers want, right or wrong, to get top dollar. Bull calves don,t bring much. I personelly would just as well have a pasture of reds but would like some uniformity in color either way.

The ulitmate cross here is Hereford/Brammer or Hereford Brangus. Camp was talking the other day of bringing in one of these two bulls. Most likely the Brangus as every heifer fetches a premium here and the the steer calfs ring the bell. If it doesn't have some Brimmer in here for the cows they are tough to sale. Guy on the way into town I don't know has about 25 Angus, I noticed he got rid of his Angus bull and there is a Gray Brammer in the pasture now.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

Alacowman and Caustic I agree with both of you. People buying cattle because of color must be in the leather business.
The unfortunite problem is that tigers will bring more money than reds or red baldies, and the difference can be substantial.
I have to produce what the customers want, right or wrong, to get top dollar. Bull calves don,t bring much. I personelly would just as well have a pasture of reds but would like some uniformity in color either way.

your heifer's will offset the discount your steers take. providing you dont have to throw alot of money at em. the stripes is just a indicator . to some that their brahman/hereford F1

 

[novatech]

Alacowman and Caustic I agree with both of you. People buying cattle because of color must be in the leather business.
The unfortunite problem is that tigers will bring more money than reds or red baldies, and the difference can be substantial.
I have to produce what the customers want, right or wrong, to get top dollar. Bull calves don,t bring much. I personelly would just as well have a pasture of reds but would like some uniformity in color either way.

The ulitmate cross here is Hereford/Brammer or Hereford Brangus. Camp was talking the other day of bringing in one of these two bulls. Most likely the Brangus as every heifer fetches a premium here and the the steer calfs ring the bell. If it doesn't have some Brimmer in here for the cows they are tough to sale. Guy on the way into town I don't know has about 25 Angus, I noticed he got rid of his Angus bull and there is a Gray Brammer in the pasture now.

In my book the herford/brangus is probably the better way to go. Less ear = more $ on the terminal end. I cannot give you a good reason why I am stuck on brahman other than the fact the I just like the dang things.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

Alacowman and Caustic I agree with both of you. People buying cattle because of color must be in the leather business.
The unfortunite problem is that tigers will bring more money than reds or red baldies, and the difference can be substantial.
I have to produce what the customers want, right or wrong, to get top dollar. Bull calves don,t bring much. I personelly would just as well have a pasture of reds but would like some uniformity in color either way.

The ulitmate cross here is Hereford/Brammer or Hereford Brangus. Camp was talking the other day of bringing in one of these two bulls. Most likely the Brangus as every heifer fetches a premium here and the the steer calfs ring the bell. If it doesn't have some Brimmer in here for the cows they are tough to sale.

• Guy on the way into town I don't know has about 25 Angus,

I noticed he got rid of his Angus bull and there is a Gray Brammer in the pasture now.

he could use a good braford bull on those angus for some reverse super baldies. unless he's using the brahman for replacements

 

[oscar p]

I went to look at some bulls at a farm in Section Alabama one time. An Old man in his 80s came out and ask me if I wanted a polled bull on a horned bull. I told him I didn't know. He carried me out to a pasture full of bulls. He said this is my polled bulls, as he poured a bag of feed in a trough.He said they were pasture raised with a little feed. As we walked behind the bulls, he told me to look at the butts on the bulls. They all looked good. He showed me the milking #s on the bulls also. Then we walked down a little lane to his horned bulls. Now look at the butts on these bull, as he poured a bag of feed in a trough. They looked even better than the polled bulls. He said they had been pasture raised also with the same feed, he also showed me the milking #s on these bulls. There was a big difference. He told me that if you breed the horns off of them, you also breed the a$$ off of them, and you breed the horns off of them you also breed the milk out of them. I ask why he carried both, horned and polled bulls. If he like horned so much. He said to give people a choice.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

I went to look at some bulls at a farm in Section Alabama one time. An Old man in his 80s came out and ask me if I wanted a polled bull on a horned bull. I told him I didn't know. He carried me out to a pasture full of bulls. He said this is my polled bulls, as he poured a bag of feed in a trough.He said they were pasture raised with a little feed. As we walked behind the bulls, he told me to look at the butts on the bulls. They all looked good. He showed me the milking #s on the bulls also. Then we walked down a little lane to his horned bulls. Now look at the butts on these bull, as he poured a bag of feed in a trough. They looked even better than the polled bulls. He said they had been pasture raised also with the same feed, he also showed me the milking #s on these bulls. There was a big difference. He told me that if you breed the horns off of them, you also breed the a$$ off of them, and you breed the horns off of them you also breed the milk out of them. I ask why he carried both, horned and polled bulls. If he like horned so much. He said to give people a choice.

you must be talkin about John ike griffith. i bought a couple year'lins from him years ago. his operation sorta went to he11 on him before he died pinkeye,cancer eye are scars to old to keep up and sorry help

 

[Caustic Burno]

Alacowman and Caustic I agree with both of you. People buying cattle because of color must be in the leather business.
The unfortunite problem is that tigers will bring more money than reds or red baldies, and the difference can be substantial.
I have to produce what the customers want, right or wrong, to get top dollar. Bull calves don,t bring much. I personelly would just as well have a pasture of reds but would like some uniformity in color either way.

The ulitmate cross here is Hereford/Brammer or Hereford Brangus. Camp was talking the other day of bringing in one of these two bulls. Most likely the Brangus as every heifer fetches a premium here and the the steer calfs ring the bell. If it doesn't have some Brimmer in here for the cows they are tough to sale. Guy on the way into town I don't know has about 25 Angus, I noticed he got rid of his Angus bull and there is a Gray Brammer in the pasture now.

In my book the herford/brangus is probably the better way to go. Less ear = more $ on the terminal end. I cannot give you a good reason why I am stuck on brahman other than the fact the I just like the dang things.

By the stats the three way cross yields more beef.
When straightbred cows reared crossbreed calves there was an average extra 8.5 percent increase in weight of calf weaned per cow. If these crossbred dams were then used to rear crossbred calves, a further 14.8 percent increase was seen as a result of the better maternal genetic environment provided by the crossbred dams. The extra calf weight from using crossbred dams to rear crossbred calves was 23.3% as compared with straightbred cows rearing straightbred calves. This resulted in a potential return increase of $40-45 per cow.

 

[KNERSIE]

I went to look at some bulls at a farm in Section Alabama one time. An Old man in his 80s came out and ask me if I wanted a polled bull on a horned bull. I told him I didn't know. He carried me out to a pasture full of bulls. He said this is my polled bulls, as he poured a bag of feed in a trough.He said they were pasture raised with a little feed. As we walked behind the bulls, he told me to look at the butts on the bulls. They all looked good. He showed me the milking #s on the bulls also. Then we walked down a little lane to his horned bulls. Now look at the butts on these bull, as he poured a bag of feed in a trough. They looked even better than the polled bulls. He said they had been pasture raised also with the same feed, he also showed me the milking #s on these bulls. There was a big difference. He told me that if you breed the horns off of them, you also breed the a$$ off of them, and you breed the horns off of them you also breed the milk out of them. I ask why he carried both, horned and polled bulls. If he like horned so much. He said to give people a choice.

This was claimed to be the case years ago and probably was indeed so. Most horned breeders still use this type of propaganda trying to sell horned bulls. I am not against horned cattle and the only two reasons I breed polled is because I hate dehorning and the market for polled bulls are better.

I went on a trip last year to all the prominent breeders (both polled and horned) in the southern half of the country in search or possible AI sires. I have spoken to many breeders claiming the same as the guy you mentioned. The hard facts is that I couldn't see it and when I showed them photos of the bulls that are supposed to have no rear ends they had to agree that they didn't have bulls that could match the rear ends of some of the polled bulls. The same goes for udders and milk.

At the moment there is very little difference between the two strains of the SAME breed, we should all market the good traits of herefords regardless of polled or horned. Its just a matter of personal choice. I am sure for every polled buttless, gutless and milkless herd you'll find you will find the same buttless, gutless, milkless herd of horned herefords. Quality breeders improve their breed, not just accept its faults and continue with the status quo.

 

[KNERSIE]

I went to look at some bulls at a farm in Section Alabama one time. An Old man in his 80s came out and ask me if I wanted a polled bull on a horned bull. I told him I didn't know. He carried me out to a pasture full of bulls. He said this is my polled bulls, as he poured a bag of feed in a trough.He said they were pasture raised with a little feed. As we walked behind the bulls, he told me to look at the butts on the bulls. They all looked good. He showed me the milking #s on the bulls also. Then we walked down a little lane to his horned bulls. Now look at the butts on these bull, as he poured a bag of feed in a trough. They looked even better than the polled bulls. He said they had been pasture raised also with the same feed, he also showed me the milking #s on these bulls. There was a big difference. He told me that if you breed the horns off of them, you also breed the a$$ off of them, and you breed the horns off of them you also breed the milk out of them. I ask why he carried both, horned and polled bulls. If he like horned so much. He said to give people a choice.

This was claimed to be the case years ago and probably was indeed so. Most horned breeders still use this type of propaganda trying to sell horned bulls. I am not against horned cattle and the only two reasons I breed polled is because I hate dehorning and the market for polled bulls are better.

I went on a trip last year to all the prominent breeders (both polled and horned) in the southern half of the country in search or possible AI sires. I have spoken to many breeders claiming the same as the guy you mentioned. The hard facts is that I couldn't see it and when I showed them photos of the bulls that are supposed to have no rear ends they had to agree that they didn't have bulls that could match the rear ends of some of the polled bulls. The same goes for udders and milk.

At the moment there is very little difference between the two strains of the SAME breed, we should all market the good traits of herefords regardless of polled or horned. Its just a matter of personal choice. I am sure for every polled buttless, gutless and milkless herd you'll find you will find the same buttless, gutless, milkless herd of horned herefords. Quality breeders improve their breed, not just accept its faults and continue with the status quo.

 

[BC]

Polled genetics have improved greatly over the last 25 to 30 years. In the early 70's, I would have had to agree that breeding the horns off also bred the butt off, BUT not anymore.

As to which is going to give the most tigerstripes is a crapshoot. The gray Brahman will probably give a few more, but you will always have some chocolate bald face and red bald face heifers that will be just as good as the stiped ones. At F1 sales you can buy them cheaper and they are just as good of cows. Those are the ones you keep and sell the stripes.

 

[novatech]

At the last F1 ABBA sale most of the lots were made up of color selection rather than phenotype. When I listen to many cattlemen talk I will hear them brag abought their tigerstripes. I can assure there are a lot more knowledgable people on these boards than you will find at the local coffee shop.
With that in mind, it may force me to sort my cattle the same way.
Before I went to just raise replacement heifers All my F1,s tigerstripes were sold to one individual, at a premium. All the reds had to go elsewhere. The reds were oftentimes the better bunch.
What really gets me is that the offspring of these cattle will also be as variable in color as the F1,s they came from and have no consistant phenotype.