Polled Hereford Cattle Plan

[Chris H]

How do you suggest I go about educating myself so I can increase the probability that I will breed four aces (poker)? For example, should I get a degree in genetics? Or...and...Do you recommend any books in regards to unique gene combining? Since I can write neural networks computer programs, could there be a way I can use this ability to non-linearly predict unique genetic combinatons and realisticly apply this to Polled Herefords?

There are probably lots of breeders who have degrees in genetics. There is a lot of research available on the web to give you the probability of characteristics being passed on to descendants. Some characteristics are highly heritable, some are not. Some things can be predicted with certainty, horn/polled, color & pattern dominence is another.
I'll give you a couple examples of tricky genetics. C -S Pure Gold 98170 is a very famous bull. C SOLID GOLD 98030 is a full brother to C-S Pure Gold. Guess which one one Denver in 2000? C Solid Gold did, guess who has the best EPDs and has been most popular? Pure Gold has been. Same genetics but the difference in EPDs is remarkable.
Then we have PW Victor Boomer P606. Since he hit the limelight it looks like they've been flushing his mother to his sire to cash in on P606's popularity. There are 20 recorded progeny from the mating that produced P606. P606 lived the first few years of his life as a cleanup bull before being noticed. When a friend asked if I wanted to go in on buying a breeding share I looked him up. Surprise! A breeder 6 miles away had a full brother! He'd bought the embryoes because he knew the dam of P606. He also had 2 sisters out of that flush. He's probably made some money on those cattle, but he's been a good solid breeder for a lot of years.
Best advice I can give about breeding cattle is to love what you're doing and don't spend more than you can afford to lose. I'd rather take my chances on trying to breed a better cow than to spend my money in Vegas.

 

[HerefordSire]

Again...what can I write after that Picasso?

How do you suggest I go about educating myself so I can increase the probability that I will breed four aces (poker)? For example, should I get a degree in genetics? Or...and...Do you recommend any books in regards to unique gene combining? Since I can write neural networks computer programs, could there be a way I can use this ability to non-linearly predict unique genetic combinatons and realisticly apply this to Polled Herefords?

I think what Doc Harris is trying to tell you is that you can't substitute anything for experience in the cattle business. A degree in genetics might be good. Certainly a class or two in animal science would help.

You've been successful and you should be proud, but breeding cattle is not cut and dried like computer science or math. As you said, a large family with the same gene pool may give you redheads, blonds, and brunetts. Blue eyes and brown eyes, left handers and right handers. It works the same in cattle. You don't need to write a computer program. The Hereford people have done that. EPDs are the best info you can get for predicting the breeding merit of beef animals, though I don't know much about Hereford EPDs. Learn about them.

I've seen several people get into the Angus business with the idea that they can pay $10,000 for a cow, breed her to a $100,000 bull and expect to sell the calf for $10,000. It doesn't necessarily work that way.

But welcome to the boards. Take the info here with a grain of salt and good luck with your new endeavor.

Yeah, I figured most of what I am learning here on this thread are all the things I am short. ...Experience and Reputation..

My comment about neural networks is something AHA doesn't have and I would have to access all the EPDs in their database. The software may be unprecented in the industry and very accurate by increasing the prediction of gene combinations. But yes, I realize the need is not there, just a thought of mine.

What animal science courses would you recommend?

 

[HerefordSire]

How do you suggest I go about educating myself so I can increase the probability that I will breed four aces (poker)? For example, should I get a degree in genetics? Or...and...Do you recommend any books in regards to unique gene combining? Since I can write neural networks computer programs, could there be a way I can use this ability to non-linearly predict unique genetic combinatons and realisticly apply this to Polled Herefords?

There are probably lots of breeders who have degrees in genetics. There is a lot of research available on the web to give you the probability of characteristics being passed on to descendants. Some characteristics are highly heritable, some are not. Some things can be predicted with certainty, horn/polled, color & pattern dominence is another.
I'll give you a couple examples of tricky genetics. C -S Pure Gold 98170 is a very famous bull. C SOLID GOLD 98030 is a full brother to C-S Pure Gold. Guess which one one Denver in 2000? C Solid Gold did, guess who has the best EPDs and has been most popular? Pure Gold has been. Same genetics but the difference in EPDs is remarkable.
Then we have PW Victor Boomer P606. Since he hit the limelight it looks like they've been flushing his mother to his sire to cash in on P606's popularity. There are 20 recorded progeny from the mating that produced P606. P606 lived the first few years of his life as a cleanup bull before being noticed. When a friend asked if I wanted to go in on buying a breeding share I looked him up. Surprise! A breeder 6 miles away had a full brother! He'd bought the embryoes because he knew the dam of P606. He also had 2 sisters out of that flush. He's probably made some money on those cattle, but he's been a good solid breeder for a lot of years.
Best advice I can give about breeding cattle is to love what you're doing and don't spend more than you can afford to lose. I'd rather take my chances on trying to breed a better cow than to spend my money in Vegas.

Ahhhhhh. Very interesting to read about actual examples. So far, I found some good info about genes related to cattle. I am particularly interested in isolating my "genes of interest" in bulls then merge them in a pumpernickel sandwich. I know the tenderness gene can be captured in a couple of bulls but may or may not be passed to offspring. However, surely the percentages rise when the bull gene exists, at least as far as the offspring are concerned.

What was the reasoning for the pure gold bull selling for more than the higher EPD bull?

 

[1848]

Well....what can I write after that....very eloquent masterpiece you wrote.

Lets inspect the gene in a real life example:

My paternal grandfather sired 10 children through the depression one of which was my father who sired 9 children, one of which is I, who sired 2 sons. Out of the 100+ offspring, until recently, my sons were the only ones carry the name.

Do you understand why?

Now for another example:

The boys in my family are far different than the girls in my family and their source of genes are identical. Additionally, 100% of my parents are right handers and 33.3% of the offspring are left handers, one of which is I. Also, although 0% of my parents have 20/20 vision, there are 11.1% of their offspring with 20/20 vision, the only one of which is I. You get the idea.....

So here is my question:

If I breed large numbers looking for the 20/20 vision gene, then place it in a straw when I find it, then breed large numbers looking for the left handed gene and place it in a straw when I find it, etc...., do you think I going about this the wrong way?

Like I said.........arrogance............potrayed with sarcasism

Obviously a recessive gene here!

Genetic engineering can defy odds, but nature will have her way in the end...either directly , or indirectly.

Lets put this in layman terms:

I you take a bull with a good reputation and use him you will probably get a quality animal 50% of the time. Considering only 50% of the crop will be bulls, you are realistically dealing with 25%. You must then select the top 5% of the bull crop and decide which of those animals exhibit the performance, phenotype, and structure, necessary to even make a good seedstock breed sire to begin with. This kinda sounds like what every other seedstock breeder out there is doing? :roll:

Of course you could just cover up all those undesireable traits with feed in say, 20% of the crop, and then place them on the market as "quality animals" with a "potential" of being a traitleader bull "someday".....that's if anybody even cares to produce 150 offspring from your select animal, and much less decides to pay to record the progeny data from it to begin with!...which buy the way is the only way those animals will become traitleaders.

It's kinda like putting eye glasses on a human I guess. Some people really can't see past their nose, and others just have their nose turned up in the sky so they can't see where they are going! ;-)

 

[1848]

What was the reasoning for the pure gold bull selling for more than the higher EPD bull?

It's called poor genetic performance, mother nature, recessive genes, lack of marketing, use on inferior quality animals....you know...the bull that needed glasses! :lol:

 

[Brandonm2]

What was the reasoning for the pure gold bull selling for more than the higher EPD bull?

It's called poor genetic performance, mother nature, recessive genes, lack of marketing, use on inferior quality animals....you know...the bull that needed glasses! :lol:

Could just be that somebody with a lot of money liked the other bull more too. You know those goofy humans, you never know what they might do.

 

[1848]

What was the reasoning for the pure gold bull selling for more than the higher EPD bull?

It's called poor genetic performance, mother nature, recessive genes, lack of marketing, use on inferior quality animals....you know...the bull that needed glasses! :lol:

Could just be that somebody with a lot of money liked the other bull more too. You know those goofy humans, you never know what they might do.

:lol: :lol: True indeed, but you never know what those buyers knew at the time either. Just goes to show that it's not just what's on the outside...or on paper!

 

[HerefordSire]

Well....what can I write after that....very eloquent masterpiece you wrote.

Lets inspect the gene in a real life example:

My paternal grandfather sired 10 children through the depression one of which was my father who sired 9 children, one of which is I, who sired 2 sons. Out of the 100+ offspring, until recently, my sons were the only ones carry the name.

Do you understand why?

Now for another example:

The boys in my family are far different than the girls in my family and their source of genes are identical. Additionally, 100% of my parents are right handers and 33.3% of the offspring are left handers, one of which is I. Also, although 0% of my parents have 20/20 vision, there are 11.1% of their offspring with 20/20 vision, the only one of which is I. You get the idea.....

So here is my question:

If I breed large numbers looking for the 20/20 vision gene, then place it in a straw when I find it, then breed large numbers looking for the left handed gene and place it in a straw when I find it, etc...., do you think I going about this the wrong way?

Like I said.........arrogance............potrayed with sarcasism

Obviously a recessive gene here!

Genetic engineering can defy odds, but nature will have her way in the end...either directly , or indirectly.

Lets put this in layman terms:

I you take a bull with a good reputation and use him you will probably get a quality animal 50% of the time. Considering only 50% of the crop will be bulls, you are realistically dealing with 25%. You must then select the top 5% of the bull crop and decide which of those animals exhibit the performance, phenotype, and structure, necessary to even make a good seedstock breed sire to begin with. This kinda sounds like what every other seedstock breeder out there is doing? :roll:

Of course you could just cover up all those undesireable traits with feed in say, 20% of the crop, and then place them on the market as "quality animals" with a "potential" of being a traitleader bull "someday".....that's if anybody even cares to produce 150 offspring from your select animal, and much less decides to pay to record the progeny data from it to begin with!...which buy the way is the only way those animals will become traitleaders.

It's kinda like putting eye glasses on a human I guess. Some people really can't see past their nose, and others just have their nose turned up in the sky so they can't see where they are going! ;-)

Maybe I can name the first one born ....Arrogance. ;-) The next one born can be name ....Sarcasm. ;-) In the second generation, I could name the offspring ....Sarogance!

Might be worth an extra hundred with a name like that at the sale barn when they play "Eye of the Tiger". :lol:

 

[HerefordSire]

What was the reasoning for the pure gold bull selling for more than the higher EPD bull?

It's called poor genetic performance, mother nature, recessive genes, lack of marketing, use on inferior quality animals....you know...the bull that needed glasses! :lol:

Sounds to me like someone overpaid. They probably ran a 40 yard dash at the farm and the one with a lower EPD came in last but he weighed more when it got time to ship so they selected the lower EPD bull. 8)

 

[1848]

Maybe I can name the first one born ....Arrogance. ;-) The next one born can be name ....Sarcasm. ;-) In the second generation, I could name the offspring ....Sarogance!

Might be worth an extra hundred with a name like that at the sale barn when they play "Eye of the Tiger". :lol:

Alrighty then...finally some form of humor! Really should drop the "eye of the tiger" theme though...go with......"Fame!"

 

[1848]

Sounds to me like someone overpaid. They probably ran a 40 yard dash at the farm and the one with a lower EPD came in last but he weighed more when it got time to ship so they selected the lower EPD bull. 8)

I think it was more of breeder competiveness at the auction. Sometimes you get the bull by the horns...and sometimes you just get the horn! :shock: :lol:

The reality is that the quality of the calves from the full sibling never stood up to Pure Gold's.

 

[HerefordSire]

Maybe I can name the first one born ....Arrogance. ;-) The next one born can be name ....Sarcasm. ;-) In the second generation, I could name the offspring ....Sarogance!

Might be worth an extra hundred with a name like that at the sale barn when they play "Eye of the Tiger". :lol:

Alrighty then...finally some form of humor! Really should drop the "eye of the tiger" theme though...go with......"Fame!"

How about "Purple Haze" for all the rural small town ranchers growing weed in their idle time? At least with the "Eye of the Tiger" selection, all the sale buyers wouldn't wear polyester 10 cans. :kid:

 

[HerefordSire]

Sounds to me like someone overpaid. They probably ran a 40 yard dash at the farm and the one with a lower EPD came in last but he weighed more when it got time to ship so they selected the lower EPD bull. 8)

I think it was more of breeder competiveness at the auction. Sometimes you get the bull by the horns...and sometimes you just get the horn! :shock: :lol:

The reality is that the quality of the calves from the full sibling never stood up to Pure Gold's.

I sure am glad I am going polled. Maybe noone checked the grandcalves. :clap:

 

[Chris H]

Sounds to me like someone overpaid. They probably ran a 40 yard dash at the farm and the one with a lower EPD came in last but he weighed more when it got time to ship so they selected the lower EPD bull. 8)

I think it was more of breeder competiveness at the auction. Sometimes you get the bull by the horns...and sometimes you just get the horn! :shock: :lol:

The reality is that the quality of the calves from the full sibling never stood up to Pure Gold's.

I sure am glad I am going polled. Maybe noone checked the grandcalves. :clap:

You'll get some horns from some of the bulls from Remitall. Our Embracer 8E son is horned, his flushmates are polled. The cow is Victor and Phantom breeding. She is polled but obviously not homozygous polled. I know you were going for a joke, but wanted to point out the polled/horned reality while I was thinking about it.

 

[HerefordSire]

Sounds to me like someone overpaid. They probably ran a 40 yard dash at the farm and the one with a lower EPD came in last but he weighed more when it got time to ship so they selected the lower EPD bull. 8)

I think it was more of breeder competiveness at the auction. Sometimes you get the bull by the horns...and sometimes you just get the horn! :shock: :lol:

The reality is that the quality of the calves from the full sibling never stood up to Pure Gold's.

I sure am glad I am going polled. Maybe noone checked the grandcalves. :clap:

You'll get some horns from some of the bulls from Remitall. Our Embracer 8E son is horned, his flushmates are polled. The cow is Victor and Phantom breeding. She is polled but obviously not homozygous polled. I know you were going for a joke, but wanted to point out the polled/horned reality while I was thinking about it.

Shows you how much I know. I figured I could get scurred cattle like Embracer's son 8006, but I did not realize I could get some horns. From what I have studied so far, scurrs represent a special trait which is viewed as negative. I view them as positive, but I don't view horns as positive, at least relative to my intentions.

 

[1848]

From what I have studied so far, scurrs represent a special trait which is viewed as negative. I view them as positive, but I don't view horns as positive, at least relative to my intentions.

It's all relative.

Most breeders, either horned or polled (you won't see no scurred breeders ), find scurs "less desireable". It has nothing to do with the quality of the animal, other than that single trait. Horned breeders want pretty horns (but cut them off most of their females), and polled breeders want "smooth" :roll: polled genetics...duh..huh! I personally have have some excellent scurred examples although I breed polled. Many breeders cross the two to get the hybrid vigor which can be associated with mixing the two strains..then they wash it back out.

There is an excellent article by Witherspoon's Nizhoni Herefords in regards to scurs. You might find it interesting, and it may be the same reason you view them as positive. Here is the link to his web site:

http://www.wnhbulls.com

 

[HerefordSire]

From what I have studied so far, scurrs represent a special trait which is viewed as negative. I view them as positive, but I don't view horns as positive, at least relative to my intentions.

It's all relative.

Most breeders, either horned or polled (you won't see no scurred breeders ), find scurs "less desireable". It has nothing to do with the quality of the animal, other than that single trait. Horned breeders want pretty horns (but cut them off most of their females), and polled breeders want "smooth" :roll: polled genetics...duh..huh! I personally have have some excellent scurred examples although I breed polled. Many breeders cross the two to get the hybrid vigor which can be associated with mixing the two strains..then they wash it back out.

There is an excellent article by Witherspoon's Nizhoni Herefords in regards to scurs. You might find it interesting, and it may be the same reason you view them as positive. Here is the link to his web site:

http://www.wnhbulls.com

Thanks. I read every word on his site about 6 months ago. It was very interesting. He offers some excellent example to understand line breeding and what can happen. I also noticed he was high on 517. When I wrote my comment, I was thinking of his website. :mrgreen:

Do you have any other places with good similar studies, etc.?

 

[1848]

Do you have any other places with good similar studies, etc.?

The polled strain of Herefords is an example in itself. They used mutated examples of the breed to develop the strain and it has now develped into a dominant breed of cattle.

 

[Mr. Right Guy]

I am not a big fan of the Witherspoon Nizhoni herd. To much BW, not enough milk. I am not a fan of Feltons 517 and WNH has used that bull way to much in there program. Never liked that 9401 cow either. Had the uglyiest udder in the world. Wouldn't want any daughters out of that cow, even if you give me the eggs. :cboy:

 

[HerefordSire]

Do you have any other places with good similar studies, etc.?

The polled strain of Herefords is an example in itself. They used mutated examples of the breed to develop the strain and it has now develped into a dominant breed of cattle.

I have thoroughly studied the history of polled Herefords. Have you ever seen or heard about an albino Hereford?