Polled Hereford Bulls

[CosgrayHerefords]

Went out to feed the calves and decided to bring the camera with me and update everyone on how the bulls have progeresses since the last posts.
The first picture is of our Gerber Lombardi son and he is a March calf.
The second and third pictures is of a bull we bought from Able Acres out of Remitall Online 122L
The final pictures are out of our same Lombardi son and he is a late May calf.

 

[HerefordSire]

Dark Red + Dark Red + Dark Red = + $500 + $500 + $500 = $1,500

The dark reds look super! The Online bull should have been named "Cash Online".

 

[Australian]

I lke the 2nd and 3rd bull pics. Don't like their white eyes but body wise they are good.

 

[KNERSIE]

Pretty good bulls, especially like the Online son (surely I didn't say that?! :shock: )
I agree with Colin that the breed needs to give the bullbuyers eye pigment even if its just a case of "if you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with BS"

The eyeset and eyebanks of the last bull is outstanding even though he doesn't have any pigment on the eye that I can see.

 

[HerefordSire]

Does the Online son's dam have EPD numbers? If not, why not?

 

[Australian]

Why do you need Epds? Look at the animal. I don't know what its like over your side of the world but Epds or Ebvs mean not much to cattle men or women. They look at the animal and if possible the sire and dam. I would never ever select an animal with figures. I can't trust the dummied up expected figures.

 

[HerefordSire]

Why do you need Epds? Look at the animal. I don't know what its like over your side of the world but Epds or Ebvs mean not much to cattle men or women. They look at the animal and if possible the sire and dam. I would never ever select an animal with figures. I can't trust the dummied up expected figures.

I am going to defer to Doc if he is around. If he doesn't answer soon, I will.

 

[CosgrayHerefords]

The reason she doesn't have any EPD's on the AHA site is because they are registered under non-members. She is owned by members but is registered under juniors. She is one of their best donors and at 13 years of age she still looks great in person.

 

[SRBeef]

Why do you need Epds? Look at the animal. I don't know what its like over your side of the world but Epds or Ebvs mean not much to cattle men or women. They look at the animal and if possible the sire and dam. I would never ever select an animal with figures. I can't trust the dummied up expected figures.

I am not an experienced cattleman however my experience so far is that EPD's are VERY helpful.

I just had my first calf crop out of a Huth bull T021. The vet and I just worked/weighed the herd on Friday and one of the bull calves born on 4/18 now weighs 185 lb and looks like my next herdsire. All 8 calves were born in a 21 day period. Lightest was 65 lb heaviest was 87 lb. Calving ease EPD's turned out to be very accurate in real life. I have trouble not bragging about T21 but I am amazed at his performance so far. I know 8 calves isn't much compared to most of you. There will be more next year.

It looks to me like EPD's, from a reliable honest breeder, can be very helpful. Obviously you need to look at the bull also but I trust a good breeder will not be selling EPD's only.

I was not able top get to Jerry's sale last Saturday but would have loved to see how his bulls looked in person this year.

Jim

 

[RD-Sam]

I like the Online bull, that is really nice!

 

[Australian]

I don't wish to enter into the goods and the bads of Epds or Ebvs. I don't rely on them don't need them just an added chore. Don't trust them. I have been breeding seedstock for the past 35 years and have never had anyone ask for them. Seems to me the only breeds that are generally besotted by them are Angus, Simmental, Charolais and Poll Hereford. Says to me that there must be a suspicion of doing ability and calving problems associated with these breeds.
We just need to appreciated these nice looking Poll Herefords, they look much nicer than figures.

 

[RD-Sam]

I don't wish to enter into the goods and the bads of Epds or Ebvs. I don't rely on them don't need them just an added chore. Don't trust them. I have been breeding seedstock for the past 35 years and have never had anyone ask for them. Seems to me the only breeds that are generally besotted by them are Angus, Simmental, Charolais and Poll Hereford. Says to me that there must be a suspicion of doing ability and calving problems associated with these breeds.
We just need to appreciated these nice looking Poll Herefords, they look much nicer than figures.

90% of all angus registered are born without assistance. EPD's are a tool, just like GeneStar, and other tests. Welcome to the new age of cattle breeding. :tiphat:

 

[CPL]

I don't wish to enter into the goods and the bads of Epds or Ebvs. I don't rely on them don't need them just an added chore. Don't trust them. I have been breeding seedstock for the past 35 years and have never had anyone ask for them. Seems to me the only breeds that are generally besotted by them are Angus, Simmental, Charolais and Poll Hereford. Says to me that there must be a suspicion of doing ability and calving problems associated with these breeds.
We just need to appreciated these nice looking Poll Herefords, they look much nicer than figures.

So you're essentially saying that studying the genotype of cattle is worthless? Because if you are, you're wrong.

I think the problem is low accuracy EPDs.... not EPDs themself.

 

[KNERSIE]

I don't wish to enter into the goods and the bads of Epds or Ebvs. I don't rely on them don't need them just an added chore. Don't trust them. I have been breeding seedstock for the past 35 years and have never had anyone ask for them. Seems to me the only breeds that are generally besotted by them are Angus, Simmental, Charolais and Poll Hereford. Says to me that there must be a suspicion of doing ability and calving problems associated with these breeds.
We just need to appreciated these nice looking Poll Herefords, they look much nicer than figures.

So you're essentially saying that studying the genotype of cattle is worthless? Because if you are, you're wrong.

I think the problem is low accuracy EPDs.... not EPDs themself.

There is more to genotype than a simplified mathematical model my young friend!

But I agree that breeding values have its place, how to use them correctly is a whole 'nother skill for which you need a very good understanding of how they are derived in the first place. Without that essential bit of knowledge its easy to put too much faith in them because of a lack of understanding of what the intended use was.

 

[Herefords.US]

I am not an experienced cattleman however my experience so far is that EPD's are VERY helpful.

I just had my first calf crop out of a Huth bull T021. The vet and I just worked/weighed the herd on Friday and one of the bull calves born on 4/18 now weighs 185 lb and looks like my next herdsire. All 8 calves were born in a 21 day period. Lightest was 65 lb heaviest was 87 lb. Calving ease EPD's turned out to be very accurate in real life. I have trouble not bragging about T21 but I am amazed at his performance so far. I know 8 calves isn't much compared to most of you. There will be more next year.

It looks to me like EPD's, from a reliable honest breeder, can be very helpful. Obviously you need to look at the bull also but I trust a good breeder will not be selling EPD's only.

Jim

Jim, to throw a little water on your "EPDs" argument, I'd like to point out that you told us that you told Jerry Huth that you wanted a calving ease bull, first and foremost, and HE pointed you to this bull. Rather than the EPDs working, I'd say it was more likely the knowledge that the breeder had in his own cattle.

Your bull still has the same low accuracy EPDs that he had - and all EPDS with those kind of accuracy levels are UNRELIABLE!! No doubt the reliability of them has been enhanced by your personal experience - in your mind, but also keep in mind that 8 calves won't move the accuracy levels much - even if you report them. And there's nothing wrong with bragging about the bull if he's doing the job you wanted him to do!

To further prove my point about EPDs, I will make a counter case. I've had 7 calves from my new herd bull from Star Lake. Now HE sports a hefty +5.9 BW EPD and a - 5.8 Calving ease EPD.

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-b...56&5=2B3C2B3C3A&6=5A5D5C25232726202F&9=5D5B5E

Only 1 of the 7 calves I've had from him would have weighed over 80 lb. at birth. And most would have been in the 60s! Two were from heifers. All were born unassisted. So, in MY mind right now, I've once again found a "calving ease" bull whose EPDs are contrary from "real life" experience.

And I'm kinda "high" on him right now, too! He's doing MORE than I thought he would, although it's still too early to tell how the calves are going to grow. I bought him to cross on the daughters of my Keynote bull and those are good calves, but I've got a couple of calves out of Pure Gold daughters that look like "home runs" at this point.

THE TRUTH IS...neither your or my experience is really reflective on the RELIABILITY of EPDs taken on their own. To begin with, we'd really need some calves from a highly proven sire to be born in the same peer group to "prove" any accuracy in what we've observed.

I have based my belief that "EPDS are unreliable on all unproven Hereford bulls!" from a whole body of observation - watching how the EPDs have evolved on many different bulls as progeny data has come in.

Just because it might "work" in one case doesn't make the EPDs on unproven bulls any more reliable.

George

 

[bigbull338]

man thats 1 heck of a set of hereford bulls.they are long thick an stout.an they have good feet an legs.you can tell they have some breeding behind them.

 

[HerefordSire]

Why do you need Epds? Look at the animal. I don't know what its like over your side of the world but Epds or Ebvs mean not much to cattle men or women. They look at the animal and if possible the sire and dam. I would never ever select an animal with figures. I can't trust the dummied up expected figures.

I am going to defer to Doc if he is around. If he doesn't answer soon, I will.

No Doc around, so I will reply.

First of all, noone needs EPD numbers.

Secondly, you mentioned the "look of an animal" and I cheated and read ahead at another one of your posts regarding 35 years of experience. The odds of changing someone who has resisted change this far, is slim to none, so I usually will not take the time to write related text. However, there may be someone reading that is open to a decent reply, so I will invest a little bit of text toward these readers.

"Leverage" is the key word I choose to use, used in the context of high level management instead of low level management. An analagy to my meaning is like having 10 cows relative to 1,000 cows under management. The principal is the same. If I make one positive simple change in the way I manage 10 cows, well the total amount of change is not that much. On the other hand, the same change against 1,000 cows could make a difference of $100K or more. If you raised high dollar purebreds, then a positive change could equate to $1M. The point is, a small change, depending on the amount of leverage you are working with, can explode numbers.

"Probability" is the other key word. Even if an animal is unproven or even if someone cooks books, there is a real probability of a value associated with an underlying actual value. Science and mathematics are used to predict future values. When the predictibility increases, risk and potential margins are lowered. Likewise, when prediction accuracy is decreased, risk and potential margins increase. One strategy is to figure out where the risk is actually lower than the market thinks and capture this additional spread.

There are many other strategies one can employ using science, mathemetics, and computers to uncover leverage using probabilities in addition to appearance.

 

[Alan]

I agree with bigbull, all decent looking bulls. The Online son catches my eye as is does most.

As far as EPD's go I have to agree with that they are a very important tool and, IMO, in most cases you can even rely on the low acc. epds. First of all, as explained to me in a previous post, the bull is only part of the calves birthing ease process. The cow has control of the calves growing environment for 9 months until birth. You can take a 5.9 BW bull and breed it to a "wide hipped" older cow an most likley get an nice unassisted birth. Or the same 5.9 BW bull to a narrow hipped first time heifer and have a train wreck. Both examples will adj. your bulls BW EPD in different ways.

But common sense will tell you that you can, in most cases, rely on low acc. EPD's. if you want a good easing calving bull a good choice would be 242. So common sense would tell you Progress would most likely be easy calving (when he had a low BW acc). Same with a good carcuss bull M326, you should be able to rely on Rib Eye as carcuss bull.

EPD's are only one part of what makes the bull right for you, but a very important part. As a closing note (then off my soap box) I don't think the numbers get "cooked" very often. Cooked numbers would trace back to the cooker sooner or later.
JMO,
Alan

 

[HerefordSire]

I don't wish to enter into the goods and the bads of Epds or Ebvs. I don't rely on them don't need them just an added chore. Don't trust them. I have been breeding seedstock for the past 35 years and have never had anyone ask for them. Seems to me the only breeds that are generally besotted by them are Angus, Simmental, Charolais and Poll Hereford. Says to me that there must be a suspicion of doing ability and calving problems associated with these breeds.
We just need to appreciated these nice looking Poll Herefords, they look much nicer than figures.

I think you use EPDs, just in your head, I call these mental EPDs. Say you have 20 heifers needing to be bred. You can choose any bull you wish. The reason why you chose the bull you did in the past, is because of mental EPDs. Correct? If you agree, you are estimating the outcome of the future progeny and mentally comparing this output when considering which bull to select.

 

[HerefordSire]

I don't wish to enter into the goods and the bads of Epds or Ebvs. I don't rely on them don't need them just an added chore. Don't trust them. I have been breeding seedstock for the past 35 years and have never had anyone ask for them. Seems to me the only breeds that are generally besotted by them are Angus, Simmental, Charolais and Poll Hereford. Says to me that there must be a suspicion of doing ability and calving problems associated with these breeds.
We just need to appreciated these nice looking Poll Herefords, they look much nicer than figures.

So you're essentially saying that studying the genotype of cattle is worthless? Because if you are, you're wrong.

I think the problem is low accuracy EPDs.... not EPDs themself.

Low accuracy EPD numbers are not a problem to me. They are an opportunity. They represent additional risk. High risk, high reward or high loss. Low risk, low reward or low loss. However, if you choose to be highly leveraged, the returns can be exponential.