Polled Hereford Bulls

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Alan,

Your example that Progress would likely be a calving ease bull because his EPDs indicates it as well as the fact that he is out of 242 who is a proven low BW bull, etc, is a good example of how you need to go about using the EPDs of unproven bulls.

Numbers do get cooked, some with the intent of deceiving and some is just good herdsmanship. If you swopped calves around between pastures to manipulate contemporary groups to favour certain calves you are cooking numbers with the intent of deceiving. If you are using a proven ultra low BW bull on high BW cows you are just being a good herdsman, but you are still cooking numbers. For example you use a -2 BW bull on a +6 BW cow and get a calf with a 2 BW projected EPD. A +2 BW EPD would qualify the bull as a low BW possibly calving ease sire, where in actual fact he is just as likely to lean to the +6 as he is to lean to the -2. Granted he will be within 1 standard deviation from the +2 in 66% of the cases, but his +2 would still be much more unreliable than a +2 bull out of two +2 parents.

So to get back to what you said, if you plan on using an unproven bull for a specific purpose like, calving ease for instance, and you lack the skill to identify calving ease bulls on phenotype and knowledge of the ancestry, you'll be better off looking at the 3 generation pedigree and their EPDs instead of building your hope on the figures of the single animal.
 
Alan":2qtmbr0r said:
I agree with bigbull, all decent looking bulls. The Online son catches my eye as is does most.

As far as EPD's go I have to agree with that they are a very important tool and, IMO, in most cases you can even rely on the low acc. epds. First of all, as explained to me in a previous post, the bull is only part of the calves birthing ease process. The cow has control of the calves growing environment for 9 months until birth. You can take a 5.9 BW bull and breed it to a "wide hipped" older cow an most likley get an nice unassisted birth. Or the same 5.9 BW bull to a narrow hipped first time heifer and have a train wreck. Both examples will adj. your bulls BW EPD in different ways.

But common sense will tell you that you can, in most cases, rely on low acc. EPD's. if you want a good easing calving bull a good choice would be 242. So common sense would tell you Progress would most likely be easy calving (when he had a low BW acc). Same with a good carcuss bull M326, you should be able to rely on Rib Eye as carcuss bull.

EPD's are only one part of what makes the bull right for you, but a very important part. As a closing note (then off my soap box) I don't think the numbers get "cooked" very often. Cooked numbers would trace back to the cooker sooner or later.
JMO,
Alan


Is a chef and a cook two different terms?

You made an excellent point about common sense. I would think most everyone can breed with the most probable calving ease bull. If they do, supply of the progeny increases. If demand stays constant, the price received will be lowered. The answer for me would be to not use a recognized calving ease bull but to locate one where the supply is expected to be low and the demand expected to be high.
 
Alan":3m1sxnxy said:
But common sense will tell you that you can, in most cases, rely on low acc. EPD's.
JMO,
Alan

Yeah, that's the kind of common sense that might get you a REAL train wreck! Like breeding P606 or New Dimension to heifers back when they both had low BW EPDs with low accuracy!

George
 
Some one above mentioned about my resistance change being a breeder for 35 years. I must be doing something correct to stay breeding without the need to use epds or Ebvs. I will not cater for the fad type breeders who last a very little time in whatever breed they choose. My clients are down to earth breeders who don't need dummied up figures to breed good cattle.
Please just appreciate the good photos of good Poll Herefords in this post.
end of story.
 
Herefords.US":363mojuz said:
Alan":363mojuz said:
But common sense will tell you that you can, in most cases, rely on low acc. EPD's.
JMO,
Alan

Yeah, that's the kind of common sense that might get you a REAL train wreck! Like breeding P606 or New Dimension to heifers back when they both had low BW EPDs with low accuracy!

George

I would love to see where 606 started out in his BW. He is obviously not a heifer bull at this point....

I realize sometimes you throw the dice and hope for the best, but proven bulls bred to proven cows produce bulls you can count on being what you are looking for "in most cases" (EPD's).

Alan
 
Australian":3b67jdf5 said:
Please just appreciate the good photos of good Poll Herefords in this post.
end of story.

It is a high jack.... good point, better than a lot of hereford bulls. Thanks for sharing the pics.

Alan
 
Alan":2s2vb6ej said:
I would love to see where 606 started out in his BW. He is obviously not a heifer bull at this point....

I realize sometimes you throw the dice and hope for the best, but proven bulls bred to proven cows produce bulls you can count on being what you are looking for "in most cases" (EPD's).

Alan


I can remember when he was advertised as a PROVEN low birth weight bull with a epd of minus 1.1, with possibly the best BW to YW ever. :roll:
 
Herefords.US":1rcikrai said:
Jim, to throw a little water on your "EPDs" argument, I'd like to point out that you told us that you told Jerry Huth that you wanted a calving ease bull, first and foremost, and HE pointed you to this bull. Rather than the EPDs working, I'd say it was more likely the knowledge that the breeder had in his own cattle.

Your bull still has the same low accuracy EPDs that he had - and all EPDS with those kind of accuracy levels are UNRELIABLE!! ....George

George, I appreciate your point of view here and I am impressed that you remembered something I posted last fall...my wife seems to remember everything I ever said, I just wish my kids would...

At the time I bought mybull from Jerry Huth in the spring of 08 I had no idea of what an EPD was. When I buy something that I don't know anything about I try to find someone who does know something and I feel I can trust and do what they tell me to do...

Yes Jerry picked out a bull based on the information I gave him. The bull he sold me, at least so far, seems to be exactly the bull I needed.

After buying my bull and learning more about cattle here and elsewhere, I found that the EPD's of my bull also seem to meet my needs, even if they are "low accuracy". I have noticed that my bull's EPD's improved from 2008 to 2009, fwiw. I think that Jerry Huth's peer group is large enough, his pedigree's are planned and he is very meticulous in maintaining data so that even his bull's "low accuracy" EPD's are worth a lot. Maybe more than some other "low accuracy" EPD's.

My only point on EPD's is that at least in my case, the EPD's appear to refect reality. Yes they are "low accuracy" andwill probably stay "low accuracy" at least as far as AHA is concerned because I do not have any registered females. I don't think you can register calves unless both dam and sire are registered?? I'm interested in selling high quality beef to consumers, not registering or showing breeding stock.

Is this just luck that Jerry Huth's "low accuracy" EPD's still seem to reflect reality? I don't think so. If you look at his recent sale flyer he is a firm believer in DATA. I trust he is also looking at these animals and culling for phenotype also. He has been in this business a long time. But he is working to develop traits that you just can't see looking at an animal, no matter how good his phenotype.

It seems to me that you can have a great looking bull but that same bull can have a tendency to sire 130 lb calves or ones that take forever to get to mature weight or sire daughters with poor udders or milk...this is where EPD's seem to come in.

I am not at all qualified to discuss EPD's other than to say that in my limited experience they seem very useful and do corelate well to the reality I see.

Thank you for your comments. Jim
 
Jim,

I'm sure all of us nay-sayers when it comes to the reliability of unproven bull's EPDs has been burnt by putting too much faith in EPDs in the past at some point.

We didn't just decide out of ignorance or a fear of change that we shall choose to ignore them, in most cases we still use EPDs, just not with the same innocent believe in them we had in the past. It still is a usefull tool, you just need to use it wisely and do more legwork and dive deeper back into the past to get the full picture.

My advise is for future bull purchases in your situation where you aren't always around during calving season is to stick with a long time reputable breeder and and let him choose a calving ease sire for you instead of thinking EPDs will be the solution in every single case.
 
KNERSIE":84r88kiu said:
Jim,

I'm sure all of us nay-sayers when it comes to the reliability of unproven bull's EPDs has been burnt by putting too much faith in EPDs in the past at some point.

We didn't just decide out of ignorance or a fear of change that we shall choose to ignore them, in most cases we still use EPDs, just not with the same innocent believe in them we had in the past. It still is a usefull tool, you just need to use it wisely and do more legwork and dive deeper back into the past to get the full picture.

My advise is for future bull purchases in your situation where you aren't always around during calving season is to stick with a long time reputable breeder and and let him choose a calving ease sire for you instead of thinking EPDs will be the solution in every single case.

Knersie,

Thanks for your comment. I agree that I should mostly rely on the breeder's advice. I was fortunate to have found Jerry Huth. As you are probably aware there are bull breeders and there are bull breeders...

I have had cattle for a few years now. The only reason I bought a bull in the first place is that I was not happy with the quality/results I was getting from the rent-a-bull system my neighbor and I had been using. The question in my mind last year at this time was is the benefit if purchasing and maintaining my own bull year around worth the trouble and expense?

One cow's calf is only a small fraction of my herd, a bull's calves however are 50% of my herd! Or more if I retain any heifers. Judging by what I see so far, the answer to my question is a strong yes, it is worth purchasing your own bull even in my small operation.

When my vet and I worked the herd last week, including the calves, I was in the chute with the calves and got to check them out in VERY close quarters. Most of them are just amazing. I was in there with one 4 week old bull calf that weighed 185 lb and is strong, square, has a butt and scrotal size already at 4 weeks that I guess I will have to keep intact. He was also remarkably calm for his first time througgh the chute. I just could not bring myself to cut that one. A couple of the heifer calves look good, solid and square butt also for their age.

Yes, I will rely on Jerry's advice on future bull purchases. However I will also want to see the bull's EPD's! And I want to take a look at the bull too now that you folks are starting to educate me! Thank you. Jim
 

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