Poll for commercial cow/calf producers

[Ashton V]

Ok I've got a question. Do black baldies have problems with their eyes like herefords do?

 

[dun]

Ok I've got a question. Do black baldies have problems with their eyes like herefords do?

We've had the same amount of trouble with black baldies, red baldies, brockle faces and Herefords NONE. The only cancer eye I ever saw was in a solid black cow

 

[Dylan Biggs]

Ok I've got a question. Do black baldies have problems with their eyes like herefords do?

We've had the same amount of trouble with black baldies, red baldies, brockle faces and Herefords NONE. The only cancer eye I ever saw was in a solid black cow

Dun, I am glad you have been spared the sight of a pie plate sized cancerous growth covering the entire side of a cows face. Thankfully I have only seen two, both on Hereford cows.

 

[Beef Man]

In my lifetime I have saw cancer in all colors of cattle,admit that at one time here the greatest majority were in the hereford cow's but that being said 90-95% of the range cattle were herefords. At the time a lot of people didnt cull like the ranchers today do so when they had a few bad eyes they hauled them in. What a discusting mess at the end of the sale in these sale rings as that was when the bad eyes came in . Most buyers got up and left and sometimes the smell would about knock you over.There wa s always 1 or 2 buyers who waited especially for them bought them cheap and made big money on them. But to say that herefords are worse than any other breed is just what is called an old wives tale. It's like saying that people of german desent have more ------ cancer than french people. You can select away from cancer eye just like a lot of things and every bad eye is not neccesarily cancer.

 

[KNERSIE]

If you want to say NOT ENOUGH has been done - or that not enough has been done to disspell those old stigmas and to promote the improvement - then you might have a valid argument.

That's probably worded better than mine, my point being that not only need the issues be adressed, but also the stigma. That said in the AI book there are examples of both udders and eyes that need serious improvement, more so eyes than udders, but the bull I am thinking of has got eyes as bad as you're likely to get.

 

[BLL CATTLE]

Hello tried two different times last night to reply to this issue. I have never needed to respond to these forums, always been happy to read and learn from the subjects and responses, but this decision has struck a nerve. Little history, I am a 4 genertion hereford rancher located in eastern Montana. Our family has relied on selling, breeding, producing registered hereford cattle since 1935. Along with our commercial hereford cows, the commercial cattleman business of the registered business has payed the bills all these years. I never said registered herefords paid the bills, I said commercial segment of the beef industry has paid our way. Their was a comment made about registered breeders the last 20 or 30 years and what they have done to improve the breed. MY familys first and passionate thought on this subject is,of our breed, that we are so loyal to, has not done enough to be excepted back into the beef industry. Why???? FOUR problems, first an assosiation that doesnt care about the commerical man, breeders that only care about padding there own pocket by selling un sound, un proven genetics that are single trait selected that wont do the commercial man any good, hard fleshing, large framed, large B.W, not problem free genetics as we all say. The other two problems are strait L1, and polled genetics. There I said it, two of the most popular lines going for the hereford breed. Yes I have introduced both into this old established herd since I have taken the reins, and have culled, cut and sold most of these genetics because they are not what my customers want. In 1993 I started with polled cattle because my customers asked for them, are they the same, NOT even close. Not a life time of breeding behind them but enough years to start to see some differents but have had more issues with these polleds than none of you can believe. Another thing is the L1, great number cattle on paper, but show me, hardiness, longevity, structure correctness and even fertility. Got the great Mile City production sale cataloge the other day and sure nice to see that they can still sell genetics out of cows that dont even have a calf every year or sell the drys to be foundation builders for someones herd. Hurts me more to admit that our breed is still being screwed with and has the possibitlity to return where we have been 20 years ago and not be able to sell our genetics to the beef industry. WE all better learn from history what happened to the hereford breed and start breeding the hardiness, ruggedness, longevity, maternal, calving ease, efficient hereford cow that is problem free, that made us once number ONE. All breeders, even me have to lisen to the industry and follow the commerical mans lead.

 

[KNERSIE]

Hello tried two different times last night to reply to this issue. I have never needed to respond to these forums, always been happy to read and learn from the subjects and responses, but this decision has struck a nerve. Little history, I am a 4 genertion hereford rancher located in eastern Montana. Our family has relied on selling, breeding, producing registered hereford cattle since 1935. Along with our commercial hereford cows, the commercial cattleman business of the registered business has payed the bills all these years. I never said registered herefords paid the bills, I said commercial segment of the beef industry has paid our way. Their was a comment made about registered breeders the last 20 or 30 years and what they have done to improve the breed. MY familys first and passionate thought on this subject is,of our breed, that we are so loyal to, has not done enough to be excepted back into the beef industry. Why???? FOUR problems, first an assosiation that doesnt care about the commerical man, breeders that only care about padding there own pocket by selling un sound, un proven genetics that are single trait selected that wont do the commercial man any good, hard fleshing, large framed, large B.W, not problem free genetics as we all say. The other two problems are strait L1, and polled genetics. There I said it, two of the most popular lines going for the hereford breed. Yes I have introduced both into this old established herd since I have taken the reins, and have culled, cut and sold most of these genetics because they are not what my customers want. In 1993 I started with polled cattle because my customers asked for them, are they the same, NOT even close. Not a life time of breeding behind them but enough years to start to see some differents but have had more issues with these polleds than none of you can believe. Another thing is the L1, great number cattle on paper, but show me, hardiness, longevity, structure correctness and even fertility. Got the great Mile City production sale cataloge the other day and sure nice to see that they can still sell genetics out of cows that dont even have a calf every year or sell the drys to be foundation builders for someones herd. Hurts me more to admit that our breed is still being screwed with and has the possibitlity to return where we have been 20 years ago and not be able to sell our genetics to the beef industry. WE all better learn from history what happened to the hereford breed and start breeding the hardiness, ruggedness, longevity, maternal, calving ease, efficient hereford cow that is problem free, that made us once number ONE. All breeders, even me have to lisen to the industry and follow the commerical mans lead.

Welcome to the discussion, we might not always agree on everything, but we all have the breed's best interest at heart.

As a breed we are already fighting what seems a losing battle against the stigmas of the past, we must be careful not to add new ones to the mix. I'd like to think some poll lines has come a long way since the early '90s and the huge gap in quality between polls and horned herefords isn't neccesarily universally true.

I'd like to learn more about your operation when you have the time.

 

[Isomade]

Hello tried two different times last night to reply to this issue. I have never needed to respond to these forums, always been happy to read and learn from the subjects and responses, but this decision has struck a nerve. Little history, I am a 4 genertion hereford rancher located in eastern Montana. Our family has relied on selling, breeding, producing registered hereford cattle since 1935. Along with our commercial hereford cows, the commercial cattleman business of the registered business has payed the bills all these years. I never said registered herefords paid the bills, I said commercial segment of the beef industry has paid our way. Their was a comment made about registered breeders the last 20 or 30 years and what they have done to improve the breed. MY familys first and passionate thought on this subject is,of our breed, that we are so loyal to, has not done enough to be excepted back into the beef industry. Why???? FOUR problems, first an assosiation that doesnt care about the commerical man, breeders that only care about padding there own pocket by selling un sound, un proven genetics that are single trait selected that wont do the commercial man any good, hard fleshing, large framed, large B.W, not problem free genetics as we all say. The other two problems are strait L1, and polled genetics. There I said it, two of the most popular lines going for the hereford breed. Yes I have introduced
both into this old established herd since I have taken the reins, and have culled, cut and sold most of these genetics because they are not what my customers want. In 1993 I started with polled cattle because my customers asked for them, are they the same, NOT even close. Not a life time of breeding behind them but enough years to start to see some differents but have had more issues with these polleds than none of you can believe. Another thing is the L1, great number cattle on
paper, but show me, hardiness, longevity, structure correctness and even fertility. Got the great Mile City production sale cataloge the other day and sure nice to see that they can still sell genetics out of cows that dont even have a calf every year or sell the drys to be foundation builders for someones herd. Hurts me more to admit that our breed is still being screwed with and
has the possibitlity to return where we have been 20 years ago and not be able to sell our genetics to the beef industry. WE all better learn from history what happened to the hereford breed and start breeding the hardiness, ruggedness, longevity, maternal, calving ease, efficient hereford cow that is problem free, that made us once number ONE. All breeders, even me have to lisen to the
industry and follow the commerical mans lead.

:clap: great first post BLL. As a commercial cattleman I don't know 1/100 of what guys like you and Knersie do about the breed. But I do love the Hereford. We had them most of my life growing up. If discussions like this are taking place here, then you can bet that other breeders are taking
notice as well. I would love to see the Hereford back on top. And :welcome: to the forum. Hope to hear more from you.

 

[smnherf]

BLL,

You sound like you are in the position I was in about 20 years ago. Lifetime of being in the Hereford business with my dad and Grandad selling bulls when I was pretty young. Hereford cattle have paid a lot of bills around here over the years. After buying top end Horned hereford bulls around the country and the results we were getting, most of the same things outlined in this poll and others not mentioned, I decided that we had to do things different. My brother pretty well gave up on Herefords and bred the Angus for many generations. I decided to build a better mouse trap. I probably got a little lucky and found a bull that reduced birthweight, reduced frame, improved udders, improved fleshing ability and had tremendous mothering ability early on and used him very hard. Never realized how good he truley was until I started using some of the more highly promoted AI bulls out on my cows and purchasing some outside cows. After collecting tons of data from feed conversion, to feedlot, carcass, cow weights and putting rigorous selection pressure on my cowherd and consistantly breeding the same type, I honestly do beleive that I do have something to offer the cattle industry other than just a white face. I am more than willing to discuss your experiences, not only what hasn't worked, but what is working for you currently. Feel free to pm or email anytime. And even my brother is back to using Hereford bulls.

Brian

 

[3waycross]

BLL,

You sound like you are in the position I was in about 20 years ago. Lifetime of being in the Hereford business with my dad and Grandad selling bulls when I was pretty young. Hereford cattle have paid a lot of bills around here over the years. After buying top end Horned hereford bulls around the country and the results we were getting, most of the same things outlined in this poll and others not mentioned, I decided that we had to do things different. My brother pretty well gave up on Herefords and bred the Angus for many generations. I decided to build a better mouse trap. I probably got a little lucky and found a bull that reduced birthweight, reduced frame, improved udders, improved fleshing ability and had tremendous mothering ability early on and used him very hard. Never realized how good he truley was until I started using some of the more highly promoted AI bulls out on my cows and purchasing some outside cows. After collecting tons of data from feed conversion, to feedlot, carcass, cow weights and putting rigorous selection pressure on my cowherd and consistantly breeding the same type, I honestly do beleive that I do have something to offer the cattle industry other than just a white face. I am more than willing to discuss your experiences, not only what hasn't worked, but what is working for you currently. Feel free to pm or email anytime. And even my brother is back to using Hereford bulls.

Brian

Brian
I can't tell you how pleasantly surprised I was to see that the breeder of your foundation bull was J Oswald. I have purchased several very good Gelbvieh's from John over the last couple of years. Seems like great cowmen are great no matter what breed they raise. BTW it's very interesting hearing John talk about his Herf years. He and Liz traveled the world for that breed.

Oh yes one more thing. I can see why you used him so hard. Maybe next year when I head up there pheasant hunting I will stop and drool over your Herfs.

 

[Oldtimer]

I like them, but the market pays less around here. Add marketing to the list.

I agree-- straight hereford calves historically have really taken a hit at our markets.... Seem to sell quite well tho if you keep them til yearlings and sell them at about 900-1000lbs...

Black baldies tho sell quite well...

We originally decided to go away from the herefords to end the added chore of dehorning--but my other issues with herefords has been the eyes/cancer eyes- sunburned udders and teats, and the prolapse problem- altho I know the breed has been working hard on all these...

 

[smnherf]

BLL,

You sound like you are in the position I was in about 20 years ago. Lifetime of being in the Hereford business with my dad and Grandad selling bulls when I was pretty young. Hereford cattle have paid a lot of bills around here over the years. After buying top end Horned hereford bulls around the country and the results we were getting, most of the same things outlined in this poll and others not mentioned, I decided that we had to do things different. My brother pretty well gave up on Herefords and bred the Angus for many generations. I decided to build a better mouse trap. I probably got a little lucky and found a bull that reduced birthweight, reduced frame, improved udders, improved fleshing ability and had tremendous mothering ability early on and used him very hard. Never realized how good he truley was until I started using some of the more highly promoted AI bulls out on my cows and purchasing some outside cows. After collecting tons of data from feed conversion, to feedlot, carcass, cow weights and putting rigorous selection pressure on my cowherd and consistantly breeding the same type, I honestly do beleive that I do have something to offer the cattle industry other than just a white face. I am more than willing to discuss your experiences, not only what hasn't worked, but what is working for you currently. Feel free to pm or email anytime. And even my brother is back to using Hereford bulls.

Brian

Brian
I can't tell you how pleasantly surprised I was to see that the breeder of your foundation bull was J Oswald. I have purchased several very good Gelbvieh's from John over the last couple of years. Seems like great cowmen are great no matter what breed they raise. BTW it's very interesting hearing John talk about his Herf years. He and Liz traveled the world for that breed.

Oh yes one more thing. I can see why you used him so hard. Maybe next year when I head up there pheasant hunting I will stop and drool over your Herfs.

I have never met John. I bought the bull after another breeder was done with him. I never knew much about John when I bought the bull but I just thought the bull is what I needed at the time. I would love to pick John's brain on Hereford cattle sometime. Your more than welcome to stop in anytime.

Brian

 

[BLL CATTLE]

Hello again, thanks for not running my butt off of here with my rambling statements . Being raised with herefords my whole life and being around lots of angus cattle and different terminal cross breeds I have a strong passion for the direction of this breed. I try to listen and learn something everyday of my life and ONE thing I do know is how valuable the hereford breed is to our industry. Everyday we here more about higher costs of production and predictions of the coming years of world population, whos going to feed the world, all kinds of paper traders talk. Where is our national cow herd heading? Put all our angus in one basket I guess and because there consistantly BLACK thats just the way everyone likes it. Heck no, Oldtimer and all the angus gurus should be proud when they put on their stetsons and head to town and just watch there local auction barn and the quality that walks through the doors. Bunchs of thin backed, short bodied,hard doing average black calves that top the market why,because their black. I guess our industry will never get over the stigmas of the problems that the hereford breed ONCE had, I will never get over the stigma of what angus cattle still have, dont care, hope the breeders I buy my angus bulls from have tried hard to clean up their problems. My point is how can these gentlemen miss the benefits of crossbreeding. Angus, angus and more angus. Does there straight bred commercial angus heifers still out sell there steers as if they were true F1s hereford angus cross? Do there straight bred angus steers out weigh,out perform, out feed, out grade and yield a F1 angus, hereford cross? Yes you will get red calves and I guess this one color stigma is the dividing factor, not bad bags, or cancer eye, or what ever the mind set of these commerical men. I have lots of pride and love what I am doing and the people I sell my genetics to. Today had two gentlemen from North Dakota come and see my operation. Both run registered angus, one just had his production sale the other day even. One bought bulls, and the other bought small package of registered hereford heifers. Long discussion about there breed and our breed and one thing that we both agreed on was that we need each other. I am a proud breeder of hereford cattle and will defend them all day long but still will try to improve this breed. Never before is there a greater time for cross breeding, not just for economical benefits but the improvement of our black national cow herd.

 

[Northern Rancher]

There can be quite a disconnect between the purebred and A'I industry and the commercial man. I worked as a rep for three A'I companies in my life-Western Breeders which got bought out by Alta Genetics which was then bought out by Genex. I lobbied all three to put a decent Horned Hereford bull in their lineup-not the Denver Champion and not a frame 8 big BW 'popular' bloodline. One that could be used on straight black heifers would of been better-a sound footed bull with a good uddered mother even more so. I finally bought that exact bull and lo and behold they leased him but proceeded not to market him-to the point of not getting semen out to people who ordered it. Long story short I'm gone from there and have started my own A'I company-we sold more semen in a week on him than the 'big' stud managed in four years. I haven't been happy with the bulls selected for quite a few years so I guess it's time to put my money where my mouth is and see if I can do a better job at putting together bulls that a commercial man can use with confidence. I always thought the companies should have a reps wish list of what their customers desire and go out and get those type of bulls-unfortunately it's more of 'This is the highest EPD son from the glossiest outfit and don't worry about if he can walk' now go B.S your customers they need to use him. I guess I got a bit jaded after twenty years of it. I agree a baldy cow if made with the right ingredients is pretty hard to beat-she might not be the best in every situation but she can function in most of them. You can usually breed one to a three legged billy goat and get a saleable calf. The market for true F1's is really growing which bodes well for the business-if you find the right Herefords and Angus to make them. Using the wrong recipe can make a cake nobody wants a slice off-just add corn puts me off my feed.

 

[KNERSIE]

There can be quite a disconnect between the purebred and A'I industry and the commercial man. I worked as a rep for three A'I companies in my life-Western Breeders which got bought out by Alta Genetics which was then bought out by Genex. I lobbied all three to put a decent Horned Hereford bull in their lineup-not the Denver Champion and not a frame 8 big BW 'popular' bloodline. One that could be used on straight black heifers would of been better-a sound footed bull with a good uddered mother even more so. I finally bought that exact bull and lo and behold they leased him but proceeded not to market him-to the point of not getting semen out to people who ordered it. Long story short I'm gone from there and have started my own A'I company-we sold more semen in a week on him than the 'big' stud managed in four years. I haven't been happy with the bulls selected for quite a few years so I guess it's time to put my money where my mouth is and see if I can do a better job at putting together bulls that a commercial man can use with confidence. I always thought the companies should have a reps wish list of what their customers desire and go out and get those type of bulls-unfortunately it's more of 'This is the highest EPD son from the glossiest outfit and don't worry about if he can walk' now go B.S your customers they need to use him. I guess I got a bit jaded after twenty years of it. I agree a baldy cow if made with the right ingredients is pretty hard to beat-she might not be the best in every situation but she can function in most of them. You can usually breed one to a three legged billy goat and get a saleable calf. The market for true F1's is really growing which bodes well for the business-if you find the right Herefords and Angus to make them. Using the wrong recipe can make a cake nobody wants a slice off-just add corn puts me off my feed.

Do you have other hereford bulls except Lad? Or a website I can look at? PM me if you prefer.

 

[Northern Rancher]

The wesite is just about up and ready. There will be more Hereford bulls than Lad-I imagine we'll be sold out of him this year. I'll keep you posted.