Pin to hook length on cows (pics)

[SRBeef]

I am still trying to get a handle on Knersie's comment on the importance of the pin to hook distance on a cow. I have been looking at my cows and heifers more closely trying to see some patterns. I would appreciate others comments on this pin hook distance thing.

For reference I found a picture of one of Knersie's heifers he posted a couple years ago and I saved as an example of what a heifer should look like in Knersie's opinion.

Here is Knersie's heifer:

Here is a picture from last fall of my favorite cow. She is about 9 or 10 years old and does a great job in many ways:

Here is a picture from last month of a partial group of my cows at treat time in my corral. Note the extended pin to hook of the young cow closest to the camera on the near end of the bunk:

Note in the photo above 66 and her buddy 62, lower square butt cows, are the 5th and 7th cows back from the front.

Here is the recent picture of one my heifer calves (foreground, about 9 months old in the pic) that Knersie commented on being short in the pins to hooks:

Here are a few more calves:

I am trying to learn to make better selection/culling decisions as I build a herd of Hereford cows. There does seem to be a big difference between cows. Comparing the one at the bunk which is long, to my favorite cow which is maybe moderate, to the calf which I can't really say much about with her winter coat. She is shorter than the others but she's also only 9 months old. comparing these to Knersie's heifer I would say his has about the same as my 66 or am I seeing things.

My eye for cattle is still a bit fuzzy. I am looking for a long rib, low 1300 lb structure but have not really paid attention to the pin to hook length until now.

Thanks for any pointers.

Jim

 

[AllForage]

How do you expect to get to your goal while using bulls from a supplier that has what seems to be the opposite goals?

Thought you did not care for Knersie's opinion anymore??

 

[SRBeef]

How do you expect to get to your goal while using bulls from a supplier that has what seems to be the opposite goals?

Thought you did not care for Knersie's opinion anymore??

Did you get out of the wrong side of bed this morning? Ice storm got you down?

1) I buy bulls from Jerry Huth because we DO have similar goals. His bulls are raised on grass. Jerry provides a lot of data on his bulls. Good data. The past two bulls I have purchased from him have worked out extremely well and in fact sired most of the cattle pictured above. I will be purchasing another Huth bull this coming spring. I see you are from Wisconsin. I am not interested in getting in the middle of any personal disagreements you may have with Jerry Huth.

2) I have had and continue to have the utmost respect for Knersie's opinions on cattle. I may not agree with all of them but he is a wealth of knowledge and experience. His conditions are very different than mine and may require different emphasis in some areas. I take suggestions and learn from many folks here, especially Knersie.

Back to my original question: What is your opinion of the importance of the hook to pin distance?

Jim

 

[3waycross]

For SRBeef. Jim here is a poicture of a heifer that is less than a month old. She has good length from her hoods to her pins. They don't grow into it. They have it or they don't. I will try to find the picture of her as a coming 2yr old and you can see she hasn't changed!

 

[KNERSIE]

Same heifer as a mature cow, although not overly long hipped, she certainly isn't short hipped.

Allforage in fairness, I haven't posted on any of Jim's threads since that day until last week, life's too short to bear grudges forever.

 

[SRBeef]

For SRBeef. Jim here is a poicture of a heifer that is less than a month old. She has good length from her hoods to her pins. They don't grow into it. They have it or they don't. I will try to find the picture of her as a coming 2yr old and you can see she hasn't changed!

Thanks 3 way. This is what I am trying to learn about. I would appreciate a later picture of her.

Jim

 

[KNERSIE]

Her first calf at around 3 months old

 

[SRBeef]

Same heifer as a mature cow, although not overly long hipped, she certainly isn't short hipped.

Allforage in fairness, I haven't posted on any of Jim's threads since that day until last week, life's too short to bear grudges forever.

Thanks, Knersie. She looks even better in the current picture. Calf looks good too. Easier to see hook to pin when they are in their summer slick than their winter overcoats.

Jim

 

[AllForage]

How do you expect to get to your goal while using bulls from a supplier that has what seems to be the opposite goals?

Thought you did not care for Knersie's opinion anymore??

Did you get out of the wrong side of bed this morning? Ice storm got you down?

1) I buy bulls from Jerry Huth because we DO have similar goals. His bulls are raised on grass. Jerry provides a lot of data on his bulls. Good data. The past two bulls I have purchased from him have worked out extremely well and in fact sired most of the cattle pictured above. I will be purchasing another Huth bull this coming spring. I see you are from Wisconsin. I am not interested in getting in the middle of any personal disagreements you may have with Jerry Huth.

2) I have had and continue to have the utmost respect for Knersie's opinions on cattle. I may not agree with all of them but he is a wealth of knowledge and experience. His conditions are very different than mine and may require different emphasis in some areas. I take suggestions and learn from many folks here, especially Knersie.

Back to my original question: What is your opinion of the importance of the hook to pin distance?

Jim

No ice storm up her and not in a foul mood. Just an honest to God question. Don't know Huth and never will. Looking at his site and his managment, just does not give the impression of a system that is for graziers. Re-read his bull managment. I think you are selling yourself short in this category. Lots of better options out there.

Knersie I agree on the grudges, have a good one.

 

[KNERSIE]

A cow that I consider to be very long hipped and about as close to the 1/3 ideal as you're likely to get

 

[3waycross]

Here is a progression for you Jim
First my 769 cow. Definately not a big cow maybe 1100lbs if that. The calf i pictured is a 2011 heifer this is 769

this is the heifer from the last post as a long yearling

same heifer

I consider her good as is her dam. But you can see that she didn't improve with age. They just don't!

 

[JHH]

I am still trying to get a handle on Knersie's comment on the importance of the pin to hook distance on a cow. I have been looking at my cows and heifers more closely trying to see some patterns. I would appreciate others comments on this pin hook distance thing.

For reference I found a picture of one of Knersie's heifers he posted a couple years ago and I saved as an example of what a heifer should look like in Knersie's opinion.

Here is Knersie's heifer:

Here is a picture from last fall of my favorite cow. She is about 9 or 10 years old and does a great job in many ways:

Here is a picture from last month of a partial group of my cows at treat time in my corral. Note the extended pin to hook of the young cow closest to the camera on the near end of the bunk:

Note in the photo above 66 and her buddy 62, lower square butt cows, are the 5th and 7th cows back from the front.

Here is the recent picture of one my heifer calves (foreground, about 9 months old in the pic) that Knersie commented on being short in the pins to hooks:

Here are a few more calves:

I am trying to learn to make better selection/culling decisions as I build a herd of Hereford cows. There does seem to be a big difference between cows. Comparing the one at the bunk which is long, to my favorite cow which is maybe moderate, to the calf which I can't really say much about with her winter coat. She is shorter than the others but she's also only 9 months old. comparing these to Knersie's heifer I would say his has about the same as my 66 or am I seeing things.

My eye for cattle is still a bit fuzzy. I am looking for a long rib, low 1300 lb structure but have not really paid attention to the pin to hook length until now.

Thanks for any pointers.

Jim

Here is one of Jerrys on another thread Jim she has good length.

 

[JHH]

Also the angle of hooks to pins can be a problem from what I have read.

 

[SRBeef]

Now we are getting somewhere!

Knersie, what is the "1/3" you are referring to as ideal? Is that mean you are looking for 1/3 of her top line in the hooks to pins?

And yes 3way I see that the proportion of hook-pins to total length is not likely to change as they grow. Thank you both.

In my corral bunk picture above, I do believe the young, Huth sired cow on the near end is about 1/3 of her top line between hooks and pins.

All forage, I would be careful about judging folks based on their websites, especially us middle aged guys. I have been at Jerry's place several times and seen the way he raises his cattle. It is really very similar to my system. Jerry is into data if not websites. Yes he does emphasize feed efficiency testing but that is useful information in a variety of systems.

 

[SRBeef]

...Here is one of Jerrys on another thread Jim she has good length.

Jerry. that sure doesn't look like any of the Huth cows I have seen at his place. The link says Trask1.jpg. Are you sure you have the right photo? Jerry did buy some cows at Schu-Lar's dispersal sale maybe he picked up a horned cow there? The name of his operation is Huth POLLED Herefords...

Please check that photo link. Thank you.

Jim

 

[AllForage]

That is a trask cow owned by a guy in south TX posted by Hambley.


Not sure why a website would not reflect ones operation truthfully. I am not interested in outcrossed cattle. My warning to you is do not get hung up on data.

I bet the more moderate the cattle the better for hook to pin width. Knersie's pic is a great example.

 

[SRBeef]

That is a trask cow owned by a guy in south TX posted by Hambley.

Not sure why a website would not reflect ones operation truthfully. I am not interested in outcrossed cattle. My warning to you is do not get hung up on data.

I bet the more moderate the cattle the better for hook to pin width. Knee dies pic is a great example.

All Forage,

I don't know why JHH would post a south Texas Trask cow as a Huth cow - that one is not even close to one of Huth's. Hopefully JHH will read this and correct his link.

I understand what you mean by "not getting hung up on data". There is a balance between data and what you see in cattle much as is taught in pilot training/flying an airplane:

follow your instruments - BUT still look out the window

Jerry Huth is looking for the same thing we all are - balance. My vet tells me the perfect bull (or cow) does not exist - we just keep working at breeding it but will never quite get there.

As Jerry told me, breeding cattle is like squeezing a balloon, if you squeeze too hard in one direction, it pops out somewhere else. (or something to that effect!)

Good day

Jim

 

[ABrauny]

Jim, no one said that horned, Trask cow was one of Jerry Huth's. It's a picture that Jerry HAMBLEY posted on here, he breeds Herefords as well, but they are not all polled.

 

[JHH]

That is a trask cow owned by a guy in south TX posted by Hambley.


Not sure why a website would not reflect ones operation truthfully. I am not interested in outcrossed cattle. My warning to you is do not get hung up on data.

I bet the more moderate the cattle the better for hook to pin width. Knersie's pic is a great example.

Sorry for any misinformation. The cow is Jerry Hambleys its a trask cow. Should have clarified which Jerry. Very sorry for any misconception. That was not my intention. I was just trying to show Jim a pic of good hook to pin length. Again sorry.

 

[SRBeef]

Since folks (AllForage) were picking on Jerry Huth and we don't usually refer to ourselves by our first name I took you to mean that was one of Jerry Huth's cows which it is definitely not.

And frankly that cow doesn't look like she has anywhere near 1/3 of her top line between the hooks and pins, unless I am seeing things all wrong.

Thanks for straightening this out.

Jim