picture of one of GreenWillow's heifers

[cowspider]

Great looking heifer, a little white never hurt a good hereford.

Tapeworm needs a good dose of ivomec.

 

[SF]

Since this has been started, might as well throw her to the lions. Above is another view.

Why would you want to do that? She looks like a nice heifer.

Just mean that if we are going to discuss her various strengths and weaknesses, we might as well have more to go on than one side picture. ;-)

Confirmation first. This is a good looking heifer. I'd register her and I'd breed her to a registered bull with less white. I could give a darn less what tape and others think about. Nice heifer GW. Keep posting pics, I like to look at them.

 

[certherfbeef]

Thomas, the head on shot of her shows that she carries a little more capacity then the origional picture that you posted. Still, I like a little less paint. Not saying I don't have some like her. She will make a great cow for you. I like her.
I like my herfs big boned and pigmented. Most times I only get one or the other. I have a few "green papered" herfs in my commercial herd I'm thinking of using that Braxton bull on next year. You might think about trying him on that heifer Thomas. Then post a pic of that calf!! ;-) You can probably start a new association...The American Roan Hereford Association. :shock:

Don't let tapeworm bother you. If you like the heifer, that is all that matters. And you are obvisly pleased. Take Care

 

[dun]

We've got what should have been a red baldy that has more white then that heifer. All the other calves by the same bull are very conservatively marked. One can never tell with some of the vriables that come in to play

dun

 

[MY]

I believe we're missing the boat here gents. When we breed to any animal we essentially breed to the average of that animal's ancestry within the first 3 or 4 generations rather than the brood animal itself. Very few animals are prepotent enough to consitently reproduce themselves. The ones that do are worth their weight in gold, and the only way to produce that type of producer consitently is by narrowing the gene pool.

That heifer is not going to all of a sudden start throwing heavy white marked calves en masse simply because she has a little more white than is standard for the breed. Heck, you could try to get a program to produce offspring that were heavily white and it would be a several decades old endeavor before there was any consistency about the herd whatsoever. As long as the core traits like carcass, maternal, growth, and so forth are there....... and have been there consistently in the ancestry, then she'll likely produce well bred to good bulls.

There are two distinct categories we have to consider as breeders, performers and producers. Not all cattle that have good EPDs or a good phenotype can produce the same kind of offspring, and there are others who have rather poor EPDs, or poor conformation or any other fault that could be fabulous producers given the chance. You want to breed that type of animal sparingly as the exception, but if the background on both sides of the pedigree is right, I'll do it in a NY minute. The fact of the matter is some guys could take trailer loads of well bred culls and produce better seedstock than the so-called stringent breeders who purport to tolerate no faults. I've seen a program of performance animals built around culls that was for many years unmatched in quality. Was the guy "ignorant" for breeding culls, or was he smarter than the average bear? Most guys just follow what they've been told without putting any real thought or study into it, and basically walk around like parrots echoing what they've heard said by someone else. It looks like you're doing your own thing Greenwillow, and that is the first step towards success in any undertaking, to stop following the crowd. ;-)

Now that ought to rankle some traditionslist feathers eh? :lol:

 

[mtnman]

Well, I really don't give a dang about markings.

I won't apologize for my opinion, either. I wouldn't have her on the place.

No guts, no glory, and no offense intended, either.

mtnman

 

[bigbull338]

see that goes to show that you stand by what you think and feel about red an white herefords nothing rong with that the fact remains she is 1 heck of a heifer scott

 

[mtnman]

If you need them looking like that, let me know. They are a dime a dozen around my parts, nobody wants the pencil guts.

mtnman

 

[MY]

They are a dime a dozen around my parts, nobody wants the pencil guts.mtnman

I don't know anything about her ancestry, but I don't really care if she's got a "pencil gut" or not. If she were mine, I'd be concerned with her sire, dam, grandparents, and great grandparents far more than I am her in regard to color, pencil gut, or any other nitpicky flaw someone can come up with.

Greenwillow already stated that this has been a hard culled herd for 40 years. Now some wise arse is probably going to say, "then why do they still get variation like that if they've been culled so hard?"

That really proves how erroneous the simpleton approach of saying "whatever the parents are the calf will be also" is doesn't it :roll: ? You're breeding to the average of both sides of the pedigree. You can get away with using anything once or twice (especially in a crossbred mating or even one outcrossed within the breed) as long as they will produce the right kind for you to move forward with. There's a principle out there called filial degeneration working in the favor of most people, while it's working against some of us. 8)

 

[SF]

... "then why do they still get variation like that if they've been culled so hard?"...

Here is the best answer to the variation...
How many of you have brothers and sisters? Do you all look exactly alike? Probably not, may be some similarities, but you probably don't look exactly alike. You can breed the same cow to the same bull each year and you will not get calves that look exactly alike.

Just the way it works.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

I believe we're missing the boat here gents. When we breed to any animal we essentially breed to the average of that animal's ancestry within the first 3 or 4 generations rather than the brood animal itself. Very few animals are prepotent enough to consitently reproduce themselves. The ones that do are worth their weight in gold, and the only way to produce that type of producer consitently is by narrowing the gene pool.

That heifer is not going to all of a sudden start throwing heavy white marked calves en masse simply because she has a little more white than is standard for the breed. Heck, you could try to get a program to produce offspring that were heavily white and it would be a several decades old endeavor before there was any consistency about the herd whatsoever. As long as the core traits like carcass, maternal, growth, and so forth are there....... and have been there consistently in the ancestry, then she'll likely produce well bred to good bulls.

There are two distinct categories we have to consider as breeders, performers and producers. Not all cattle that have good EPDs or a good phenotype can produce the same kind of offspring, and there are others who have rather poor EPDs, or poor conformation or any other fault that could be fabulous producers given the chance. You want to breed that type of animal sparingly as the exception, but if the background on both sides of the pedigree is right, I'll do it in a NY minute. The fact of the matter is some guys could take trailer loads of well bred culls and produce better seedstock than the so-called stringent breeders who purport to tolerate no faults. I've seen a program of performance animals built around culls that was for many years unmatched in quality. Was the guy "ignorant" for breeding culls, or was he smarter than the average bear? Most guys just follow what they've been told without putting any real thought or study into it, and basically walk around like parrots echoing what they've heard said by someone else. It looks like you're doing your own thing Greenwillow, and that is the first step towards success in any undertaking, to stop following the crowd. ;-)

Now that ought to rankle some traditionslist feathers eh? :lol:

"MY" - The comment regarding "- - putting any real thought and study into it" recapitulates what many of us on these posts have reiterated - ad infinitum - concerning EPD's. - - -"following the crowd" is not always advisable- - -unless the crowd is on the right track! ;-)

 

[DOC HARRIS]

They are a dime a dozen around my parts, nobody wants the pencil guts.mtnman

I don't know anything about her ancestry, but I don't really care if she's got a "pencil gut" or not. If she were mine, I'd be concerned with her sire, dam, grandparents, and great grandparents far more than I am her in regard to color, pencil gut, or any other nitpicky flaw someone can come up with.

Greenwillow already stated that this has been a hard culled herd for 40 years. Now some wise arse is probably going to say, "then why do they still get variation like that if they've been culled so hard?"

That really proves how erroneous the simpleton approach of saying "whatever the parents are the calf will be also" is doesn't it :roll: ? You're breeding to the average of both sides of the pedigree. You can get away with using anything once or twice (especially in a crossbred mating or even one outcrossed within the breed) as long as they will produce the right kind for you to move forward with. There's a principle out there called filial degeneration working in the favor of most people, while it's working against some of us. 8)

I had a Genetics professor one time who - literally - banged his head on the classroom wall attempting to impart the difference between "Phenotype" and "Genotype" into his students brains! Didn't work with everyone then - doesn't work with everyone now! :shock: :shock: